AMFA/teamsters Senoirity Integration

[swamt]

I agree, and the window to do that again has closed. It was obvious that NWA had only one objective-Bust AMFA at any cost. It took NWA 18 months to round up just over 1000 scabs at a time where pretty much every carrier except WN had laid off thousands of mechanics. They cut their operations by 20% and limped along till Delta took over. There was a glut of A&Ps out there and NWA still had a hard time, now it takes AA at least 5 months to get just 30 mechanics when they needed 60. If they cant get 60 what makes people think they could get the thousands they would need to continue to operate? NWA was a battle, a Pearl Harbor, or an Alamo for our profession, yes that battle was lost but the conditions that lead to that loss aren't the same today as they were then. Whats really sad is that the defeat of AMFA at NWA was supported by other labor organizations who failed to follow what they preach. Their hatred for AMFA didn't just set back Aircraft Mechanics, it set back the labor movement as a whole. It showed how Unions were willing to turn on each other and even help management screw other workers. Management saw how weak we had become and it emboldened them to take even more. Then they wonder why after spending millions, after putting all their efforts into changing laws to make it easier to organize their drives fail one after another. It wasn't just management that saw how weak unions had become, workers saw it as well, if not for the Union security clause how many people at US or AA would continue to voluntarily pay dues to earn less than their non-union peers? Yes AMFA lost the battle at NWA, but the IAM, TWU, IBT, ALPA and AFA failed the rest of us by not doing anything to stop it.

Very well said.

 

[Bob Owens]

At UA and US both were in chapter 11, the law forces to negotiate concessions or face an abrogation and imposition of concessions.

And the law at one time considered Unions to be illegal conspiracies, some laws are meant to be challenged. Today only airline worker unions are barred from striking upon abrogation of their contracts, there was no law wriiten by lawmakers and voted on by elected representatives making it so but rather a decision by two judges in a three member panel. No other Unions in this country are forced to refrain from self help in the face of abrogation. Fuel companies can cut off fuel deliveries if the airlines dont pay what they demand, vendors can withhold their products and lessors can take back their property but airline Unions are forced to comply with terms they do not agree to. So the excuse that airlines are essential to commerce doesn't hold water because if those entities withheld their products, which they can, the carrier could not operate. The singling out and unfair treatment of Airline Unions must stop, and the leaders of these unions must demand that it stop. I just cant figure out why they don't? Is it because the status quo provides a convenient excuse?? None of those people lost any pay or benefits. Under these terms Unions have no value. All the airlines had to do was buy off two Judges and the Unions roll over and obey???

People like you really make a good arguement against Unionism without even realizing it. Take peoples money then blame the fact that you really cant do anything to give them what they are paying for on the laws that you do nothing to change.

Have you ever actually read the law? The law seeks to redress "onerous contracts" and assumes that the debtors troubles are in fact real. The court in NY is a bunch of crooks who simply give companies whatever they want, even if the company is there simply to get favorable terms and not escape from onerous terms and they will continue to do so until the Unions get together and correct it by rebelling against the court. We should demand that the NY court be liquidated and all of those crooks fired and prosecuted for facilitating fraud. Are you aware that BK codes have been dissolved in the past because they became corrupt? Well maybe its time to do it again.

 

[Realityck]

#30
Bob Owens

Veteran​

Registered Member​

lineguy43, on 01 April 2013 - 03:30 PM, said:


Yes you are correct. However, I do believe NW had a grander plan for us and that was to get rid of us. I think they knew they were going to merge with DL in the future and we were not to be a part of it..JMHO..So in my eyes I believe they would have locked us out.

I agree, and the window to do that again has closed. It was obvious that NWA had only one objective-Bust AMFA at any cost. It took NWA 18 months to round up just over 1000 scabs at a time where pretty much every carrier except WN had laid off thousands of mechanics. They cut their operations by 20% and limped along till Delta took over. There was a glut of A&Ps out there and NWA still had a hard time, now it takes AA at least 5 months to get just 30 mechanics when they needed 60. If they cant get 60 what makes people think they could get the thousands they would need to continue to operate? NWA was a battle, a Pearl Harbor, or an Alamo for our profession, yes that battle was lost but the conditions that lead to that loss aren't the same today as they were then. Whats really sad is that the defeat of AMFA at NWA was supported by other labor organizations who failed to follow what they preach. Their hatred for AMFA didn't just set back Aircraft Mechanics, it set back the labor movement as a whole. It showed how Unions were willing to turn on each other and even help management screw other workers. Management saw how weak we had become and it emboldened them to take even more. Then they wonder why after spending millions, after putting all their efforts into changing laws to make it easier to organize their drives fail one after another. It wasn't just management that saw how weak unions had become, workers saw it as well, if not for the Union security clause how many people at US or AA would continue to voluntarily pay dues to earn less than their non-union peers? Yes AMFA lost the battle at NWA, but the IAM, TWU, IBT, ALPA and AFA failed the rest of us by not doing anything to stop it.

…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………

Anyone who can’t see the incompetence of AMFA’s leadership who backed themselves into a corner by suggesting to NWA management that they should screw the IAM membership and then expect the IAM to support their strike, is naïve beyond belief. Even the most gullible AMFA officer should have known NWA management was preparing to take them on, and calling a strike under those circumstances when NWA had replacements ready and was fully prepared for it is one of the most glaring examples of failed leadership ever seen in the Airline Industry. Just two years earlier AMFA actively assisted the NWA flight attendants in decertifying the Teamsters and forming an independent union, the PFAA. They even shared the same building and counsel, but AMFA still could not persuade the flight attendants to honor its strike. It is not a coincidence you omitted that union from the list of unions that supposedly failed AMFA, but the fact is that AMFA’s strategy was rejected by the leadership and membership of every other union on the property, including a union that AMFA helped form.

Well before the strike NWA had managed to outsource the majority of its heavy overhaul and had reduced its mechanic and related workforce by over sixty percent. While NWA was preparing to take on AMFA by training scabs in the desert AMFA was still trying to raid other unions. While NWA was investing in scabs and outsourced maintenance, and despite the fact that it had made virtually no preparations and had coordinated with no-one, it joined NWA’s request to the NMB for a release. The irony is that for all of the constant babbling about the alleged superiority of craft unions, AMFA members and their families received more economic assistance from the UAW than from any craft union or from AMFA itself. That assistance came from the very sorts of industrial workers that are criticized on this board every day as not being good enough to be in the same union as AMFA members.

The union that failed AMFA/NWA members was AMFA. Nine thousand mechanic and related lost their jobs under AMFA’s watch and less than a thousand (mostly scabs) survived to come work at Delta. Yet, on this board, AMFA did nothing wrong, there was nothing wrong with its strategy, and Bob believes it was all the fault of other unions.

 

[Bob Owens]

#30

Veteran​

…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………

Anyone who can’t see the incompetence of AMFA’s leadership who backed themselves into a corner by suggesting to NWA management that they should screw the IAM membership and then expect the IAM to support their strike, is naïve beyond belief. Even the most gullible AMFA officer should have known NWA management was preparing to take them on, and calling a strike under those circumstances when NWA had replacements ready and was fully prepared for it is one of the most glaring examples of failed leadership ever seen in the Airline Industry. Just two years earlier AMFA actively assisted the NWA flight attendants in decertifying the Teamsters and forming an independent union, the PFAA. They even shared the same building and counsel, but AMFA still could not persuade the flight attendants to honor its strike. It is not a coincidence you omitted that union from the list of unions that supposedly failed AMFA, but the fact is that AMFA’s strategy was rejected by the leadership and membership of every other union on the property, including a union that AMFA helped form.

Well before the strike NWA had managed to outsource the majority of its heavy overhaul and had reduced its mechanic and related workforce by over sixty percent. While NWA was preparing to take on AMFA by training scabs in the desert AMFA was still trying to raid other unions. While NWA was investing in scabs and outsourced maintenance, and despite the fact that it had made virtually no preparations and had coordinated with no-one, it joined NWA’s request to the NMB for a release. The irony is that for all of the constant babbling about the alleged superiority of craft unions, AMFA members and their families received more economic assistance from the UAW than from any craft union or from AMFA itself. That assistance came from the very sorts of industrial workers that are criticized on this board every day as not being good enough to be in the same union as AMFA members.

The union that failed AMFA/NWA members was AMFA. Nine thousand mechanic and related lost their jobs under AMFA’s watch and less than a thousand (mostly scabs) survived to come work at Delta. Yet, on this board, AMFA did nothing wrong, there was nothing wrong with its strategy, and Bob believes it was all the fault of other unions.

Never said AMFA did nothing wrong but most of what you wrote supports what I said about NWA being determined to bust the Union, and while unions may battle each other they should always stick together under those conditions, you know "United we win" and all those other slogans you love to say. What was the payoff for the IAM at NWA? They got busted as well, and they faded away without any fuss whatsoever when NWA went away and became a part of Delta. So in the end both the IAM and the Flight attendants ended up with no union, busted, without any economic impact to the company whatsoever and that was after submitting to the carriers demands.

 

[Just Another BK]

The UAL and Cal mechanics are still without a merged senoirity list, even though they are both represented by the teamsters, and it's been more than 3 years. The teamsters have a policy, "in writing", and has failed to implement a combined senoirity list. It's not even 2 years after SWA closed on AT purchase yet and not only did AMFA get the mechanics list completed, but all the biggest groups are done, even the groups that went thru arbitration. Below is the method at which AMFA will apply during senoirity integration nego's. Does anyone know what the TWU has put out in writing what their method will be?


Dear Mechanic and Related Employees:



AMFA's historic policy has been to favor dove-tailing of seniority lists based on the consideration of date-of-hire and referencing date-of-entry into the classification(s) with appropriate conditions and restrictions to prevent any improper windfall or adverse impact for either employee group. Conditions and restrictions are frequently used to avoid excessive dislocation of individuals from their current positions, which could give rise to undue hardship for the member and their family. In the case of AA and US we would favor "Date-in-Classification" since both groups use this seniority method.

During negotiations elected representatives from both American Airlines and US Airways will focus on the appropriate conditions and restrictions to be applied to achieve a successful integration of both groups. Your elected representatives would be advocating for your interests as we collectively resolve the merging of the two seniority lists. The McCaskill-Bond Amendment guarantees a "fair and equitable seniority integration of employee groups affected by the combination of two or more airlines."

AMFA recently represented the Southwest Airlines technician and related employees seniority integration with the former AirTran members who were represented by the Teamsters. AMFA negotiated the integration of the two seniority lists by a "dove-tail" by date-of-hire process with an additional four year increase to the date-of-hire for all AMFA- Southwest members while taking into account the considerations as mentioned above.

While it is anyone's guess how the TWU and the IAM would structure their committees and resolve the seniority integration methodology; it is certain, that in AMFA, any agreement reached on behalf of our members would be put to a vote of our members! In AMFA there are no secret Letters of Agreement and all Letters of Agreement must be voted on by the membership.
In AMFA, the individual voice is heard while the collective voice speaks.

Sincerely,

Louie Key
National Director

Any Seniority Integration not based directly by DOH in the Mechanic and Related Field is Total BS. I don't care where you live or how many years in station. AMFA can boast all they want about a Class and Craft Union but if they don't honor your time spent in that class and craft with your Company and later combined Corporate merger's then it's all non sense IMO. I started out with PSAirmotive, subsidiary of PSA then USAir, Piedmont, AWA Merger's and finally USAirways Group brand name. All seniority lists base directly by DOH. We have never had any problems here. No one had to check to see what seniority they had at what station ! You bid positions, get bumped or bump someone else. Simple. If someone has 30 years of seniority, their station gets shut down and he is willing to relocate, he shouldn't be denied a position where junior employees are working. End of story.

 

[AANOTOK]

Agreed...pretty simple!

 

[Bob Owens]

Any Seniority Integration not based directly by DOH in the Mechanic and Related Field is Total BS. I don't care where you live or how many years in station. AMFA can boast all they want about a Class and Craft Union but if they don't honor your time spent in that class and craft with your Company and later combined Corporate merger's then it's all non sense IMO. I started out with PSAirmotive, subsidiary of PSA then USAir, Piedmont, AWA Merger's and finally USAirways Group brand name. All seniority lists base directly by DOH. We have never had any problems here. No one had to check to see what seniority they had at what station ! You bid positions, get bumped or bump someone else. Simple. If someone has 30 years of seniority, their station gets shut down and he is willing to relocate, he shouldn't be denied a position where junior employees are working. End of story.

So if a group of workers rolls over time after time, dragging down the industry, sees their carrier bought out by a company where the workers didnt roll over and raised standards then the people wo dragged the industry down should reap the rewards of something they never fought for? They should not only get the pay and benefits they never fought for but the seniority to bump some of those who earned it out of a job?

Things aren't always that simple.

 

[Slopoke]

Any Seniority Integration not based directly by DOH in the Mechanic and Related Field is Total BS. I don't care where you live or how many years in station. AMFA can boast all they want about a Class and Craft Union but if they don't honor your time spent in that class and craft with your Company and later combined Corporate merger's then it's all non sense IMO. I started out with PSAirmotive, subsidiary of PSA then USAir, Piedmont, AWA Merger's and finally USAirways Group brand name. All seniority lists base directly by DOH. We have never had any problems here. No one had to check to see what seniority they had at what station ! You bid positions, get bumped or bump someone else. Simple. If someone has 30 years of seniority, their station gets shut down and he is willing to relocate, he shouldn't be denied a position where junior employees are working. End of story.

DOH seniority and classification senorities are not always the same. DOH or company seniority should be used for vacation bidding and classification seniority should be used for bumping, days off, shift bids, like AA currently dose.

 

[amt66]

CIO

Key word in your statement ( negotiated ) unlike a lot of stuff here with the TWU.
Just look what we did to the TWA guys, 4/10/01 thats fair right?
Guys with 30yrs in the industry getting screwed. I will assume you have never worked any place other than Here.

many here at AA with the TWU will not like the fair way by intergrating by occupational/clasification seniority
which is fair. How each carrier does its intergration during merger depends on the membership and the union leadership.

Lets see how the IBT handles the CAL/UAL deal.

Lets see how we do with the USAir guys as well.

AMFA at AA in 2013​

Willard,

I look at it like this does AA need US to survive? No, did twa need AA to survive ? Yes case closed! The twa guys got 100% company time which is used for vacation and retirement. If I was in their shoes I'd be happy just to have a job. Airline mergers suck for this very reason someone always gets screwed or isn't happy. So 400 twa guys aren't happy should we screw the 8000 AA guys?

 

[MCI transplant]

Willard,

I look at it like this does AA need US to survive? No, did twa need AA to survive ? Yes case closed! The twa guys got 100% company time which is used for vacation and retirement. If I was in their shoes I'd be happy just to have a job. Airline mergers suck for this very reason someone always gets screwed or isn't happy. So 400 twa guys aren't happy should we screw the 8000 AA guys?

Hey, if the IAM comes out on top in this so called merger, will the TWA guys get their senority back?

 

[700UW]

No

 

[1AA]

Hey, if the IAM comes out on top in this so called merger, will the TWA guys get their senority back?

YES all the way back to the first day they started Kindergarten.

 

[MCI transplant]

YES all the way back to the first day they started Kindergarten.

Hey! That'll work!!!

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

I look at it like this does AA need US to survive? No, did twa need AA to survive ? Yes case closed! The twa guys got 100% company time which is used for vacation and retirement. If I was in their shoes I'd be happy just to have a job. Airline mergers suck for this very reason someone always gets screwed or isn't happy. So 400 twa guys aren't happy should we screw the 8000 AA guys?

AMT66

You asked does AA need USAir, you say "NO" then why is AA merging? AA needs this merger in order to stay competitive in the global market and not lose market share to UAL and DL.

USAir put in a bid with stock an $$ and Parker is going to be running the show. NOT
T.H. So if USAir is taking AA would you be happy to get 4/10/2013 seniority? I bet NOT. "YES" AA is the larger of the two but we are the ones in BK, NOT USAir.

I also see that you have that AA/TWU frame of mind that ( I GOT MINE) (just be lucky to have a job) AA is in BK NOT USAir you should be lucky.

I would say that you are one of the "YES" voters I will bend over again so I can keep my job. AA is the best, what ever it takes as long as you're still working. Some where along in history guys put their jobs on the line so you can have what we all have. Better lives due to the unions of the past. Some thing the men/woman of today have forgotten.

The TWU has had most of the AA employees drinking the so called kool aid thinking of the company first rather than their fellow workers. That work together win together well what has that got us?

Just look at what we have lost since 2001. How long do you think it is going to take to get all of that back? What will be the starting point of new negotiations? We will get em next time. They can do that brother...

TWA was not in bk when it all got started to take them having TWA file made it happen. It Got rid of C. Ican from the industry as well. Another F. Lorenzo. Why is T.H. leaving? He has done his job here as he did with his last job. He got the employees of AA to give up knowing due well we don't have the ability to invoke self help and strike due to the fact we will effect US economy and never be released to strike. Corp America and the government have made the laws so that unions of today are almost without any power. Unions such as the TWU work also in clicks take care of the guys we like and let the other get screwed by the company. It will move me up in seniority, he wa an jerk any way attitude.

Like I said we will see how the IBT does with the CAL/UAL guys?

We will also see how the USAir guys are going to lose the IAM pension they have.
We will see that the CAL guys who have a pension now will lose that since being merged with UAL. We just seen that the IBT gave to the IAM (ramp) the Taxi/Tow crew so that cost mechanics jobs. For what (2) holidays and to get back the 100% sick pay which they should of had all along.

Your are right in a way in a merger some one gets screwed none of us wnat to be on the short end but we as mechanics should look out for one another so that in the long run we all across the industry don't take it in the shorts.


AMFA at AA in 2013

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

If I have to come down on AMFA for anything it would be that in my opinion we should have stayed on the clock and not went out on an official strike..AMFA had always been an advocate of the flight attendant type of strike which is called CHAOS. (Create Havoc around our system). In other words stay working and impose self help by a work slowdown. Had AMFA not chose to do a traditional strike and chose the CHAOS route instead I believe that would have made a real difference in the outcome.. First NW had all those SCABS trained and paying their room and board figuring they would demand concessions so bad that it would guarantee AMFA would strike which is what did happen. However, If we had stayed on the clock I believe NW would have been forced to lock us out. Then we ALL would have been eligible for unemployment benefits and might have kept the weaker members from crossing the picket line.

700UW, on 01 April 2013 - 03:45 PM, said:

You have to remember even if you stayed on the property NW could have imposed a new CBA per the RLA and you would either work under those conditions or strike.


Yes you are correct. However, I do believe NW had a grander plan for us and that was to get rid of us. I think they knew they were going to merge with DL in the future and we were not to be a part of it..JMHO..So in my eyes I believe they would have locked us out.


Lineguy43

It is good to see that guys who were there at NWA are posting what really went on Not the versions that other think or were told what was going on. If you know other who can post on this that were a part of NWA have them tell the rest of these people what NWA plan was and how it all panned out.

If you had to fight again would you, ???? even though the CAOS may have been the way but 20/20 hindsite.

Was it worth putting NWA out of business to stand up for what you believed at the time????

WAS it worth having NWA fail after the IAM Ramp, Flight attendants, and Pilots crossed your line?

IT was a shame and different than when we walked at EAL all unions walked, but that wa a different time.