AFA Labor Thread Aug 27- Union Issues Here

[flybynite]

Just think out of the box and pilot world for once!!

This might be the biggest problem on the East as regards to seniority and blockholders. IF you are able to split away from the pilots, than more fa's should be able to hold a block and secondary line v.s being on reserve for so many years.
Vaflygal, the Transcon turns do not go to reserve flight attendants, all lineholders keep these precious trips, including one day trips, and Hawaii. Most of our Reserves out West are stuck with 18 credit 4 day trips, with lots of West coast turns, 5 legs and 9 hour layovers. This needs to change, because they are the same trips that ALWAYS stay in Company Open Time all month. No thx.
More productive flying if you get RID OF PILOTS!! Rest provisions are in place. The worst scenario we come into is an 8 hour minimum rest if we are late. If you are working an Transcon turn, and you are late due to w/x or m/x, you can refuse to fly if it goes over 14 and a half hours. IF you choose to work over you get an extra 7 and half credits extra pay. Sometimes the pilots will be on the same delay and overnite, so your minimum goes up a couple hours.
I am also not giving up my vacation time on the WEST!!!!!!!
I REFUSE to vote for a contract with NO FLEXIBILITY, and NO ONE should be on RESERVE FOR 18+ Years!!!!!!!!!!
That is PLANE WRONG! :angry:
Forget about the PILOTS, lets move on for all of US FA's NOW and get a JOINT CONTRACT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jeez..........hold on there big boy.

I'll agree no one should be on reserve that long. I was on reserve for 16 yrs and flip-flopped between reserve and secondary for a few more years. It's been awful. And had to do the LTO reserve thing as well. Nasty way to live.

Now you've never flown your trip pairings with your pilots so you can't really know the difference. You do a couple of legs with them and then change out...boom they are gone. Never really know their names or really establish a working relationship with them. It's kind of a wham bamm thank you mame thing. And it doesn't make for good CRM. And that's what we've been trying to explain to you. Or at least me anyway.
You have to be with a crew member more than a couple of legs to establish good visual cues. And those cues could mean the difference between life or death. I could go on about this for a while but I think you know what I mean. PM me about it.

As for me........if it's not good for the pilots it damn sure isn't good for me. Look at it this way....the FAA makes laws for the pilots and not the flight attendants. That should tell you something right there.

Think about it.

 

[FlyOnWall]

Saying that everyone likes the bid sheet, straight reserve, and following pilots around is completely false. Many, many US F/As are passionately against both, but are simply dismissed. Just because someone doesn't challenge your loud views doesn't mean they agree. Thankfully, all votes carry the same weight.

A great many of the last generation of US F/As worked for other carriers before US and during furloughs, and have flown under more conventional standards and realize how lobsided, convoluted, and costly the archaic US system is. Since the airline is stagnant, the tired old adage of 'paying dues' no longer applies. Everyone 1989 and on, particularly 1999 and under, have paid far more dues than others.

I agree that it is that old regional mentality- small, sheltered, narrow-minded, and insecure that has the US F/As making the lowest wages in the industry while still maintaining high cost items that benefit very few and punish more. If and when there is a merger with one of the big boys it's going to be a shock to the system when some of the relatively bizarre stuff is thrown out without so much of a thought...

 

[flybynite]

Saying that everyone likes the bid sheet, straight reserve, and following pilots around is completely false. Many, many US F/As are passionately against both, but are simply dismissed. Just because someone doesn't challenge your loud views doesn't mean they agree. Thankfully, all votes carry the same weight.

A great many of the last generation of US F/As worked for other carriers before US and during furloughs, and have flown under more conventional standards and realize how lobsided, convoluted, and costly the archaic US system is. Since the airline is stagnant, the tired old adage of 'paying dues' no longer applies. Everyone 1989 and on, particularly 1999 and under, have paid far more dues than others.

I agree that it is that old regional mentality- small, sheltered, narrow-minded, and insecure that has the US F/As making the lowest wages in the industry while still maintaining high cost items that benefit very few and punish more. If and when there is a merger with one of the big boys it's going to be a shock to the system when some of the relatively bizarre stuff is thrown out without so much of a thought...

Interesting............

It's apparent that you are not aware of the fact that prior to the last 2 BK's that USAirways f/a's had the most enviable contracts in the industry. And because of the BK's the company was able to strip us down to our panties. Or our panty hose & jockie shorts..take your pick.

This isn't about a regional mentality.........this is about true flexibility with your schedule. No one...even today...after all we have gone through, has the kind of flexibility that we have. Should you ever get off reserve....you'll understand why we've dug our heels in over it. It not just for us....it's for those behind us too.

And guess what? I don't care if it's costly or convoluted. Parker and his VP's are hauling it in from my and your labor.

I want a piece of my pie too!!

 

[Furloughd4now]

Vaflygal, the Transcon turns do not go to reserve flight attendants, all lineholders keep these precious trips, including one day trips, and Hawaii.

The "Cartel" keeps it for themselves and if they can't fly it, they trade amongst each other so it will Never go to a RSV. Honestly, the West is worst than the East with this.

I was lucky and got a PHX/TPA turn ONCE because I was "OPR" and I guess one Cartel Member's phone tree broke down. Boy was I treated "persona Non Gratis".

Saying that everyone likes the bid sheet, straight reserve, and following pilots around is completely false. Many, many US F/As are passionately against both, but are simply dismissed. Just because someone doesn't challenge your loud views doesn't mean they agree. Thankfully, all votes carry the same weight.

A great many of the last generation of US F/As worked for other carriers before US and during furloughs, and have flown under more conventional standards and realize how lobsided, convoluted, and costly the archaic US system is. Since the airline is stagnant, the tired old adage of 'paying dues' no longer applies. Everyone 1989 and on, particularly 1999 and under, have paid far more dues than others.

I agree that it is that old regional mentality- small, sheltered, narrow-minded, and insecure that has the US F/As making the lowest wages in the industry while still maintaining high cost items that benefit very few and punish more. If and when there is a merger with one of the big boys it's going to be a shock to the system when some of the relatively bizarre stuff is thrown out without so much of a thought...

Agreed, though I dont have as much time as you all do, YOU did not have endure layoffs following 9/11. Choosing to stay in the industry, its been challenging. Why, you ask, is my business. I'm NOT saying that you OWE me anything, HOWEVER, with the exception of a recession in the 90's the vast majority of you have been "cushy" in your jobs for well over 20 years and have no intentions of going anywhere and YOU ARE PROTECTED!. With the exception of the company closing down., talk about job security. Consider yourselves VERY VERY lucky. I'm not bitter, just stating a point because unless you have been in our shoes you have NO clue. Try flying a non-union airline. You wouldn't last a week.

As a Reserve, Do you REALLY think its fair to Hear your MEC "leader" state (and I quote) "If it won't benefit the Lineholders, we won't even consider it"??? Sorry, but WTF, is my $40/month worth less than yours Mr/Ms Lineholder? Apparenty so, so please enough with your tirades, its getting tiresome.

WE NEED A CONTRACT THAT WILL BENEFIT ALL MEMBERS, I REPEAT ALL MEMBERS!

And I've been saying for months now, there WILL be a merger, or acquisition or whatever the flavor dujour is ... we WILL be split.

And you all think its bad now?

Have a Nice Day!

 

[Travelpro72]

Being paired with the pilots is costly. For AFA to even CONSIDER splitting do you all not think for one red hot second Mike and the JNC are not aware of the price it holds? For the JNC to consider splitting you ought to know that the union will be looking for HUGE gains in many areas of the contract. Couple that with language that leaves no room for different interpretation by the company. Again I don't believe in my heart of hearts that Mike would bring anything to the members that he knows up front would overwhelmingly fail. He sees the path of where the pilots are going and is willing to entertain the possibility of splitting if it TRULY benefits the flight attendants. Again, like him or not he's NOT stupid. Oh yeah and I can't afford to live reserve for the next 10 years either on this contract. sorry. :down:

 

[Furloughd4now]

Being paired with the pilots is costly. For AFA to even CONSIDER splitting do you all not think for one red hot second Mike and the JNC are not aware of the price it holds? For the JNC to consider splitting you ought to know that the union will be looking for HUGE gains in many areas of the contract. Couple that with language that leaves no room for different interpretation by the company. Again I don't believe in my heart of hearts that Mike would bring anything to the members that he knows up front would overwhelmingly fail. He sees the path of where the pilots are going and is willing to entertain the possibility of splitting if it TRULY benefits the flight attendants. Again, like him or not he's NOT stupid. Oh yeah and I can't afford to live reserve for the next 10 years either on this contract. sorry. :down:

Yea, but he will ONLY work for what works for the lineholders.

 

[Travelpro72]

With many lineholders finding themselves back on this lovely reserve system I think MANY will be looking at that section and going over it with a fine tooth comb. He (Mike) also is quite aware of what people want in the reserve section. I think there will be sections that apply to lineholders and reserves that will make many happy AND pissed off whether we're paired with pilots or not.

 

[WCT]

Back when I first started at AWA, yes we were paired with the pilots.
CRM is what you make of it. You get use to the changes, believe me. The 18 credit 4days need to change, as I stated in my earlier post.
If you want to be close minded and never get higher credit trips, more days off, finally OFF RESERVE, and more vacation. Stay with your contract and pilots. Good luck. 2020 anyone??

 

[flybynite]

No...Mike isn't stupid but he is under pressure to bring something to the table. Yet at the same time, this has been going on so long, I'd be willing to wait out the FAA on the flight time limitations.

Personally, I don't care if it's costly for the company for the crews to stay co-paired. In reality it's not. We fly the same rigs anyway. The only thing that might be considered costly is the f/a's not being scheduled to fly over 8 hrs hard time a day. And I thought slave labor was outlawed in this country.

Oh well...!!.....anyone else (earthlings) would be paid time and a half for going over 8 hrs a day. I have never been able to figure out why f/a's are so hell bent on flying their rears off and not get paid a premium for it.

We don't get paid to board the aircraft...we don't get paid to clean the aircraft...we don't get paid to deplane the aircraft...we don't get paid a night premium...nor are we getting paid for deadhead. May I go on???

I'm sick and tired of not being paid for my time. I'm sick and tired of having to wrestle with the company over money I've earned. I will not give them not one red cent more.

:angry:

 

[FlyOnWall]

Agreed, though I dont have as much time as you all do, YOU did not have endure layoffs following 9/11. Choosing to stay in the industry, its been challenging. Why, you ask, is my business. I'm NOT saying that you OWE me anything, HOWEVER, with the exception of a recession in the 90's the vast majority of you have been "cushy" in your jobs for well over 20 years and have no intentions of going anywhere and YOU ARE PROTECTED!. With the exception of the company closing down., talk about job security. Consider yourselves VERY VERY lucky. I'm not bitter, just stating a point because unless you have been in our shoes you have NO clue. Try flying a non-union airline. You wouldn't last a week.

As a Reserve, Do you REALLY think its fair to Hear your MEC "leader" state (and I quote) "If it won't benefit the Lineholders, we won't even consider it"??? Sorry, but WTF, is my $40/month worth less than yours Mr/Ms Lineholder? Apparenty so, so please enough with your tirades, its getting tiresome.


[/quote

?

Are you talking to me specifically? Because yes, I have endured a post 9/11 layoff, and I have indeed worked for a non-union airline, unfortunately for far longer than a week, and am 'a reserve'.... and I agree my dollars and vote are as valid as everyone else's and will not vote for someone else's ridiculous 'flexibility'.

 

[flybynite]

Back when I first started at AWA, yes we were paired with the pilots.
CRM is what you make of it. You get use to the changes, believe me. The 18 credit 4days need to change, as I stated in my earlier post.
If you want to be close minded and never get higher credit trips, more days off, finally OFF RESERVE, and more vacation. Stay with your contract and pilots. Good luck. 2020 anyone??

We don't have 18 hr 4 days. Our minimum is a 20 hr 4day. I suspect the difference is your 1 for 4 trip rig.

 

[FlyOnWall]

Interesting............

It's apparent that you are not aware of the fact that prior to the last 2 BK's that USAirways f/a's had the most enviable contracts in the industry. And because of the BK's the company was able to strip us down to our panties. Or our panty hose & jockie shorts..take your pick.



I want a piece of my pie too!!

It's apparent that you don't know much about your own work group considering EVERY US Airways (East) F/A was around for the pre-BK contract[/i.... Did you think we had hired since then???? Well. newsflash, we stopped hiring long before BK1, in fact we furloughed nearly half of the workforce since... what was that you said about AWARENESS?

I've never heard of another carrier, AFA or otherwise, looking to adopt our system of rescheduling the entire operation every day, having 20% of the group on straight, around the clock reserve, and letting pilots negotiate our lot in life....

The short-lived (2 years?) 2000 contract had some nice stuff in it, as usual for the same group of people. At the time, there was a chance for everyone to at some point reach the level at which those benefits could be enjoyed. With retirement gone and Republic and friends doing what used to be our growth flying (thanks pilots!), the current seniority list is basically the same group of people stuck on a broken elevator. One person being a slave so another can have a ridiculous amount of flexibility is not going to continue not only because it's unfair but because it is draining money that could be rewarded to us other ways.

How many slices of the pie does one F/A need, and why should we watch you gorge yourself while we scurry for crumbs?

 

[Furloughd4now]

It's apparent that you don't know much about your own work group considering EVERY US Airways (East) F/A was around for the pre-BK contract[/i.... Did you think we had hired since then???? Well. newsflash, we stopped hiring long before BK1, in fact we furloughed nearly half of the workforce since... what was that you said about AWARENESS?

I've never heard of another carrier, AFA or otherwise, looking to adopt our system of rescheduling the entire operation every day, having 20% of the group on straight, around the clock reserve, and letting pilots negotiate our lot in life....

The short-lived (2 years?) 2000 contract had some nice stuff in it, as usual for the same group of people. At the time, there was a chance for everyone to at some point reach the level at which those benefits could be enjoyed. With retirement gone and Republic and friends doing what used to be our growth flying (thanks pilots!), the current seniority list is basically the same group of people stuck on a broken elevator. One person being a slave so another can have a ridiculous amount of flexibility is not going to continue not only because it's unfair but because it is draining money that could be rewarded to us other ways.

How many slices of the pie does one F/A need, and why should we watch you gorge yourself while we scurry for crumbs?

Great post Fly, and no I was not referring to you specefically, but replying in regards to many posts. You and I are on the same page.

I can reiterate older posts, but If I ever get a day off (and not working crappy 5hr ETB) whereby I can just research and re-post all my comments that just need to be regurgitated here *yet again*

 

[ebwgs]

Again I don't believe in my heart of hearts that Mike would bring anything to the members that he knows up front would overwhelmingly fail. He sees the path of where the pilots are going and is willing to entertain the possibility of splitting if it TRULY benefits the flight attendants. Again, like him or not he's NOT stupid.

This passage is very interesting to me. I remember back in '05, just before the merger was announced, US offered buyouts with a $10,000.00 carrot to any and all qualified flight attendants. Anticipating the imminent demise of the company, many flight attendants jumped at the chance. Shortly thereafter, once the ink dried on all of the separation agreements, the merger was announced, and all of those folks who agreed to voluntarily separate were left on the outside looking in and wondering what might have been. I will grant that many took a hike and never looked back. Sadly, there are many more who quietly or loudly regret that they took that leap with no chance of coming back under the same terms--seniority wise--that they left. Back then, nobody saw "the path" of where the company was going or what their long term intentions were as a going concern. Of course now we know what those intentions were.

I don't doubt that Mike is a bright guy, but I'm certainly not willing to put faith in his seeing "the path of where the pilots are going" when I'm not sure if the pilots or the company knows. But I do know that, from the recent experience of the separation buyouts and the subsequent merger, that we should not play our hands out of desperation before the company does. We shouldn't be making an hasty decisions without fully knowing what we're getting into. We don't want to make a bad decision on Monday and wake up Tuesday wishing we could have Monday back. The devil is always in the details. I don't play poker, but I know enough to know to disguise my face and not to play my hand too fast. What did my man Kenny Rogers say? We've all "got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em."

Let's keep the "Me-Too."

 

[Travelpro72]

Ok for the sake of a good debate what do all of you that propose "keeping the me-too" think the f/a group should do? Do you all honestly feel due to those "few" items that don't protect you all that much to begin with, we should sit and wait for the pilots to iron out their differences? I mean seriously? Thats what some of you believe is the solution? If so I'm stunned......just stunned. :blink: