US AFA labor thread 3/28-

[beachboy]

Because they are run well.

 

[Travelpro72]

I understand the fear of splitting from the pilots. I also think that if all of the other unions are able to negotiate and ratify a contract that we should see this place go down like Eastern airlines because of the pilot ordeal. I'm not saying I agree with the pilot issue and they have their own thread for it. I just don't see flight attendants at other airlines living horrible lives being screwed left and right because they don't pair with their pilots. Granted we're talking about US here. I believe it CAN be done but WON'T be done due to old world thinking. I'm sorry but we have stuck with them all these years (no offense pilots) but where has it landed us? NOWHERE. I LOVE being paired with the pilots but as many examples that can be brought up of being protected I can count the times of being screwed too. You'd be hard pressed to find a flight attendant at another airline to give up what they have to take what we have.

 

[ussnark]

Also, beachboy mentions PHL in the thunderstorm season. How does AA deal with DFW/ ORD in the thunderstorm season? How does DL deal with ATL during the thunderstorm season? Why would PHL be so different?

DFW and ATL have virtually unlimited airspace which translates into almost unlimited climb/descent corridors. PHL is constrained by NE operations, resulting in almost continual flow restrictions, both east/west as well as north/south. While DFW/ATL can tailor takeoffs and landings to avoid weather, PHL must cope with EWR/LGA/JFK/BOS which further constrain operations.

A solution is a complete revamp of airspace use and "3-D" thinking applied to restricted airspace.

 

[flybynite]

" Longer duty days, and longer flight hours, so what?"

That's a big "so what".

We don't want longer duty days nor longer flight hrs in a duty day. Also, I can't imagine what's wrong with your pilots.... :blink:

As for ORD, ATL, DTW...they cancel flights. Because their crews are scattered. Been there done that.

By keeping the crews together, you have a faster recovery time. That sounds like a win/win to me.

You keep forgetting we have had split crews and satellite/dual bases. So much of this is old school. IMO. Best kept for the little regionals. And DL and NW may be trying to salvage jobs by opening satellites. That's a guess.

 

[Travelpro72]

I feel at this point that we should negotiate the same protections that the pilots have that are FAA related and separate from the pilots. I never thought I would say that but I'm over it. I agree with the seniority issue but don't believe that the rest of us should have to sit on our hands. This could ONLY be done if we were to put in hardcore AFA people. If we are going to keep the likes of Anne, John, Alin and all the other nerdowells we have no choice but to shut up and put up. NOTHING will change. We need strong AFA individuals able to think outside the box, negotiate a clean cut (no gray area) contract. People with vision and a strong ability to negotiate. With all that said, here we sit.

 

[kamono]

Being separated from the pilots has it's advantages, and can be tough some days, waiting for pilots to show up on a fully loaded plane (because their in bound is late). But We Do have a base out in PHX, starting a satellite base is not a great idea.
Both Unions need to get US to one contract, and if they need help then they need to be getting HELP from MOTHER AFA!!!!! that is what we pay our dues for!!! Power in numbers so they say!!! were are they. after 3 1/2 years........
Sorry to seem pissed but I am one of the F/A's out west, and keep seeing my flights cuts or given away.

And before we get into it the west no money out there stuff!!!!!!!!!

SOUTHWEST is here and going very well (out west), and lets not forget California 13% of the GNP though we a not high dollar there is definitely a need. PHX has now past PHL in population.

Cutting and running is not the way to grow a business, (shrinking PHX and opening a Satellite East base)
is definitely not the way, LETS PUT MORE KNIVES INTO EACH OTHER.

This Company just loves us to fight amongst ourselves.

I want one Contract, and welcome those from the East who don't wish to commute to PHX, Please come enjoy because commuting in any way shape or form is a pain.

 

[aredeeyou22]

DFW and ATL have virtually unlimited airspace which translates into almost unlimited climb/descent corridors. PHL is constrained by NE operations, resulting in almost continual flow restrictions, both east/west as well as north/south. While DFW/ATL can tailor takeoffs and landings to avoid weather, PHL must cope with EWR/LGA/JFK/BOS which further constrain operations.

A solution is a complete revamp of airspace use and "3-D" thinking applied to restricted airspace.

OK, then let's focus on the Northeast. How, then, does CO handle thunderstorms at EWR? Is their recovery time A LOT more than USAir because we are one crew? Delta at JFK? I see the potential for delays and misconnects with pilots/fas being separate, and I realize this does add to issues at other legacies, but I still don't understand why these other legacies that are MUCH larger than US are able to stay separate from the pilots, and maintain their schedule.

Flybynite, I realize these are big "so whats". I never said negotiate longer duty days... If ORD/DFW cancel flights due to scattered crews, then we can expect to see their cancellation rates MUCH higher than that of US when the thunderstorms start this summer? I'd be interested to see the numbers on that...

Why can't we, as FA's noegotiate a continued 15 hour irrops duty day when we are separate? That's BETTER than what the pilots have! Duty rigs? Negotiate away! We all know that the pilots/ ALPA never had a problem negotiating away the farm; how much worse can FA's be?

I respect your opinion, but I think there is nothing more "little" and "regional" than staying with the pilots. If it were so much more beneficial to scheduling/ irrops, all airlines would be implementing it. They are not.

Trav, spot on. Negotiate a contract with strong protective language, and separate. If the only reason that this would fail is because we are not "run well", well then, that ain't our problem.

 

[songbirdstew]

I feel at this point that we should negotiate the same protections that the pilots have that are FAA related and separate from the pilots. I never thought I would say that but I'm over it. I agree with the seniority issue but don't believe that the rest of us should have to sit on our hands. This could ONLY be done if we were to put in hardcore AFA people. If we are going to keep the likes of Anne, John, Alin and all the other nerdowells we have no choice but to shut up and put up. NOTHING will change. We need strong AFA individuals able to think outside the box, negotiate a clean cut (no gray area) contract. People with vision and a strong ability to negotiate. With all that said, here we sit.

Now this is an EXCELLENT post ! There is NO reason that we cannot and do not negotiate the same protections the pilots have but away from them. The me-too clause made us lose our duty rigs....plus many other things. Negotiate away from the pilots what works best for the F/A's, learn your contract, carry your contract and when crew scheduling tries to force you to break your contract tell them you're not doing it. Period. If we negotiate not being scheduled over 14 hrs. and not flying over 15 hours--just like we have now---scheduling tries to force us and you tell them to go pound salt.

I've had pilots try to tell the crew we needed to go over 15 hours (14:46 plus 15 debrief) and I've told them no way, get someone else, I'm not breaking my contract. The F/A group needs to quit being scared out what COULD happen by breaking away from the pilot group and negotiate what SHOULD happen to protect our work group. The pilots are in limbo and should no longer be part of the equation. Who knows, we get away from them, we may actually be able to negotiate BETTER duty rigs...can't do any worse than what we have now.

We do need individuals with the kahunas to take us in a new direction and those we have now are on the same course to nowhere that they've been on for years.

 

[aredeeyou22]

Now this is an EXCELLENT post ! There is NO reason that we cannot and do not negotiate the same protections the pilots have but away from them. The me-too clause made us lose our duty rigs....plus many other things. Negotiate away from the pilots what works best for the F/A's, learn your contract, carry your contract and when crew scheduling tries to force you to break your contract tell them you're not doing it. Period. If we negotiate not being scheduled over 14 hrs. and not flying over 15 hours--just like we have now---scheduling tries to force us and you tell them to go pound salt.

I've had pilots try to tell the crew we needed to go over 15 hours (14:46 plus 15 debrief) and I've told them no way, get someone else, I'm not breaking my contract. The F/A group needs to quit being scared out what COULD happen by breaking away from the pilot group and negotiate what SHOULD happen to protect our work group. The pilots are in limbo and should no longer be part of the equation.

We do need individuals with the kahunas to take us in a new direction and those we have now are on the same course to nowhere that they've been on for years.

The most "abuse" that would happen to the FA's (if we were separate) would be that they did not take the time to learn their contracts.

 

[flybynite]

It is in our contract now that we can go up to 15 hrs in a duty day due to irregular ops. The FAR's prevent us from going over 15 hrs too.

And the pilots that are trying to get you to fly over that are a bunch of knuckleheads.

And the reason the other airlines have separate crew pairings is because they have always done it that way and see no need to change it. They like keeping their flight crews separate because they're afraid they might get along too much....understand each other's jobs better...help each other out....pull together during contract time...show a united front.

 

[Travelpro72]

If you negotiate the same parameters that the pilots have but split to improve our productivity and quality of work what is the problem? If the ONLY reason we don't split is fear of contract abuse and delays...well my friends I think we see all too much of that already. Now again, negotiate a clean cut contract with NO guessing or possible "company interpretation" of the language. It's all based on fear. As for duty days...well negotiate items where the company can't fly you up and down the coast (think PHL-MCO turns) all day long. Put stipulations in there where certain language has to be followed. It's called negotiating. The same old crew is at the table and nothing will change. This has nothing to do with anyone personally that is negotiating either. It's about fresh ideas instead of melding old pieces of a broken contract to create a new one.

 

[flybynite]

Ah yes, negotiate, negotiate, and more negotiating.

The only problem is DP and his band of Desert Denizens are not negotiating in good faith now as it is.

I'm pissed...you're pissed....we're all pissed.

 

[PITbull]

Separation from the pilots is Pandora's box for two simple reasons.

1. This company can neither read nor follow contractual language. They use our working agreements like Puffs Plus to wipe their noses daily. They only respect FAA regulation because they law makes them and if they could get away with that...trust me they would. So, even if we negotiated every protection the pilots have under our contract it's just that...a contractual obligation. How fast you think it would take them to go wild with that?

2. PHL in the summer thunderstorm season. Kiss your nice little 3 day commutable GOODBYE! You will be rescheduled like the wind. Scattered Smothered Covered and SPIT!

Not a smart idea for our base alignment and us a flight attendant group. I will say I think the company is using this Me Too as leverage in negotiations. They know the pilots are hopelessly lost and will most likely be the end of this carrier. So by linking us all together what do they care?

Frankly the AFA mec should recall the negotiating committee back to regular duties until Doug gets serious. It's a wait of everyone's time and we are sick of it.

Excellent perspective, and argument. You are right on!

 

[Travelpro72]

Oh no doubt that the negotiations have been anything but slow and unrealistic. Now with that said I believe our vision and ideas should be changing to stand alone as a work group with our own contract. I'd like to stay together but negotiating a contract including "me too" language will ratify when? Do we see any light at the end of the tunnel for the pilot issue? What would the company be willing to accept in negotiations if we chose to split? If we gave up sticking together but STILL negotiated most of the important stuff couldn't we get a good bit in return for splitting? Listen, I know it's easier said than done and there is a lot to cover when crossing the t's and dotting the i's. I believe it CAN be done but won't even REMOTELY be visited by the group who is heading the negotiations for the flight attendants.

 

[ussnark]

If you negotiate the same parameters that the pilots have but split to improve our productivity and quality of work what is the problem? If the ONLY reason we don't split is fear of contract abuse and delays...well my friends I think we see all too much of that already. Now again, negotiate a clean cut contract with NO guessing or possible "company interpretation" of the language. It's all based on fear. As for duty days...well negotiate items where the company can't fly you up and down the coast (think PHL-MCO turns) all day long. Put stipulations in there where certain language has to be followed. It's called negotiating. The same old crew is at the table and nothing will change. This has nothing to do with anyone personally that is negotiating either. It's about fresh ideas instead of melding old pieces of a broken contract to create a new one.

Be certain you negotiate protections, in the event you are replaced when the trip you want goes without you because the plane you are on is late, otherwise, to protect themselves, the company will build trips that will not maximize your time on the property. Talk with Carol Austin, because she came up with some really good reasons why that may not help you.

and, certainly, do not rely on pilots to enforce FARs. Many do not even know the FARs, much less their contracts.