AFA Labor Thread Aug 27- Union Issues Here

[flybynite]

It's apparent that you don't know much about your own work group considering EVERY US Airways (East) F/A was around for the pre-BK contract[/i.... Did you think we had hired since then???? Well. newsflash, we stopped hiring long before BK1, in fact we furloughed nearly half of the workforce since... what was that you said about AWARENESS?

I've never heard of another carrier, AFA or otherwise, looking to adopt our system of rescheduling the entire operation every day, having 20% of the group on straight, around the clock reserve, and letting pilots negotiate our lot in life....

The short-lived (2 years?) 2000 contract had some nice stuff in it, as usual for the same group of people. At the time, there was a chance for everyone to at some point reach the level at which those benefits could be enjoyed. With retirement gone and Republic and friends doing what used to be our growth flying (thanks pilots!), the current seniority list is basically the same group of people stuck on a broken elevator. One person being a slave so another can have a ridiculous amount of flexibility is not going to continue not only because it's unfair but because it is draining money that could be rewarded to us other ways.

How many slices of the pie does one F/A need, and why should we watch you gorge yourself while we scurry for crumbs?

Dang.....I didn't mean to trip your trigger. It certainly isn't our fault that the industry has been stagnant for many years. Or that the industry as a whole has a tendency to implode on itself every 5 yrs or so...911 or not. Weird business the airlines. Darnest thing I've ever seen.

Shoot..if you think about it...we're an amazing group of people. We've taken some hard licks and we're still standing. There's a lot to said about that alone.

And hey, I got your news flash. I was on reserve probably longer than you've worked here. Maybe...maybe not but don't think for one second I don't get it.

I don't consider you a slave nor should you. You should be able to have a life outside this place and make a living should you decide to stay. Maybe you should go back and read my post again. I've never said anything against reserves...ever. I was one far too long and know the pain.

Instead of playing the blame game with the blockholders, why don't you take it up with the company? They are the ones that refuse to give the reserves any relief. They want you to get fed up and quit so they can hire newbies for half your salary. Such as it is. Don't do it.

As many years as I was on reserve, I never blamed the blockholders for my reserve status. Nor begrudged them their work rules or flexibility because I knew if they could drop their trips, I could pick them up from open time as you do. The biggest problem now is that we can't recalculate rig time for split trips like we used to and that needs to be addressed in a new contract. That and LTO.

So..if you want to be mad at someone....get mad at the company.

 

[Furloughd4now]

Shoot..if you think about it...we're an amazing group of people. We've taken some hard licks and we're still standing. There's a lot to said about that alone.

And I appreciate every last one of you "US"!

 

[flybynite]

Ok for the sake of a good debate what do all of you that propose "keeping the me-too" think the f/a group should do? Do you all honestly feel due to those "few" items that don't protect you all that much to begin with, we should sit and wait for the pilots to iron out their differences? I mean seriously? Thats what some of you believe is the solution? If so I'm stunned......just stunned. :blink:

Travel

I personally don't think we have to wait on the pilots. And never have. We could have a TA tomorrow if the company would stop dragging their feet. In fact, I think the company just uses the "pilot's issues" as an excuse not to get on the ball. IMO.
What ever we agree to with the "me-too" clause, the pilots would go with what we want if it benefits us both. I say keep it. I know the pilots want to stay co-paired with us. So why not?? I think we're going to have separate ops for a long time anyway.

 

[galley princess]

I agree with Flybynite. It's the company giving you the idea that you either split with the pilots and get a contract or don't get one at all. Nothing says that there can't be sections that say something to the effect:

FAs will have X amount of rest or whatever pilots get if better.

Flybynite clarified exactly what is wrong with this whole argument. It isn't a zero sum game like the company would like you to think it is.

I think the whole thing really began with WEST's desire to keep their transcon turns, but as I said before, the problem is translation. Their trans-con turns would be a nightmare day up an down the Eastern seaboard for EAST. Nothing says we can't negotiate them inside our contract but the FAA ruling is worth waiting for, especially on this point, again, you might get that for free.

As for the reserve and how it has played out in the last 15 years, that's a combination of demographics and a recalcitrant company. I have been a longtime advocate of buying the senior out, and then I'm accused of ageism. The reality is they're too young to retire and yes, they've had it good for a long time, but that has been more about them being hired at the right time than any conscious tilting of contracts. They stay because they have a good job. The people in front of them left because they had good pensions.

Airlines are seniority driven, and so are the benefits. I truly believe that US is one of the worst case scenarios, however demographics are demographics and there's nothing you can do about them except BUY THEM OUT. The ones that want to go anyway that is, and if you look at how many are miserable commuting from PIT and other places, I really think you'd gain some serious numbers.

THAT is what the junior should be hollering for, not a pilot-FA split. To get to the flexible schedule and good trips you need to move up, not eliminate their existence.

 

[BajaBabe]

Guess what folks, I am not perfect but our MEC well they are hardboiled eggs and you all allow them to rule the Roost. JM is trying to help me but as much as they think I am the genius to SAP,ETB, BID frankly I am not. This entire system has to be throw out it's made to trip everyone up. I am over this mess and it's up to you guys to show up and make change happen. AIL Sap TWOP MOP DROP....throw it all out and get crap we can read and know whats going on.

 

[Travelpro72]

I have always preferred to stay with the pilots if able to do so. I also agree that the JNC should wait to see what the FAA changes are before proceeding forward. If we can finish a contract with language that permits "better" work rules if achieved by the pilots in year 2025 fine. My concern is being able to be more productive IF YOU PREFER to be. Another concern and question would be, "would you TRUST the company to implement the better agreement language"? ya know like we TRUSTED they'd implement the PBS? Mmmm hmmmm. I agree with what Baja said in that the JNC MUST, MUST, MUST streamline the process of the blockholder schedule/bidding process. If the bidsheet is to stay they again MUST fix the process. It's a mess to say the very least.

 

[cactusflyer]

Not to change the subject here but can anyone from the east tell my what your recall process is? Is it different from the way the west is doing it because you have more councils? I was told that was posted on the west board and that Mike is scared so he has to keep Lisa happy. I just wondered if that was true or another lie.
Thx.

 

[theFLYonthewall]

Not to change the subject here but can anyone from the east tell my what your recall process is? Is it different from the way the west is doing it because you have more councils? I was told that was posted on the west board and that Mike is scared so he has to keep Lisa happy. I just wondered if that was true or another lie.
Thx.

Why would MF be scared? He has more years of working with this company then AWA has been in business, not to mention his AFA experience. The sad thing is he has to work with her so he has to maintain professionalism for the sake of his members. She is NOTHING but a train wreck for both West and East. She and her side kick need to go now.

Recalling someone from an AFA office works the same in a single council as it would in a multi council. You have to follow the Constitution and Bylaws on the recall process. Good Luck, you certainly have my support in your recall efforts!

 

[flybynite]

Not to change the subject here but can anyone from the east tell my what your recall process is? Is it different from the way the west is doing it because you have more councils? I was told that was posted on the west board and that Mike is scared so he has to keep Lisa happy. I just wondered if that was true or another lie.
Thx.

Go to the AFA International website and click on the section Constitution and Bylaws. It spells the process out very clearly.

Hope that helps. Good luck.

 

[safety stud]

This debate on whether to keep the me too, or not needs to be put to rest once and for all. The true debate needs to be on the true issue here.

Are the F/A's able to stand on there own two feet, or do they need support from others?

If you look at what people are truely saying on this board, they are all scared... Scared because in there own lives, they have never had to make a meaningful stand for themselves. All of those years on having union meetings and never going, all of those contracts of concessions and voting for them, all of those company stock initiatives needing your vote NO and you not doing anything with them giving the company a yes vote. Shame... Shame on all of us for letting this happen.

In my humble opinion, the MT clause is very out dated. When the group was smaller, when the company negotiated with the group in good faith, and when the negotiaters where management and not bean counters the MT had relivance, It no longer does. It is now finally time for all of us to stand on our own two feet and negotiate our own set of rules and regs, not tied to anyone but ourselves the company and the FAA. Get real people, its not the pilot group, the FAA, or the company you need to worry about.... It's us, the F/A group...

Stand Up...For Yourselves...
For each other...


Just my opinion...

 

[beachboy]

Back from vacation rested.  I got to see Iowa and learned how to husk corn and bake apple crisp. I was hoping for St. Kitts but all the same thing. 
What been going on?  Still here talking if to seperate or not to seperate? Decisions decisions. Still say they are up to something and I bet it comes out real soon.

 

[Itestwell]

This debate on whether to keep the me too, or not needs to be put to rest once and for all. The true debate needs to be on the true issue here.

Are the F/A's able to stand on there own two feet, or do they need support from others?

If you look at what people are truely saying on this board, they are all scared... Scared because in there own lives, they have never had to make a meaningful stand for themselves. All of those years on having union meetings and never going, all of those contracts of concessions and voting for them, all of those company stock initiatives needing your vote NO and you not doing anything with them giving the company a yes vote. Shame... Shame on all of us for letting this happen.

In my humble opinion, the MT clause is very out dated. When the group was smaller, when the company negotiated with the group in good faith, and when the negotiaters where management and not bean counters the MT had relivance, It no longer does. It is now finally time for all of us to stand on our own two feet and negotiate our own set of rules and regs, not tied to anyone but ourselves the company and the FAA. Get real people, its not the pilot group, the FAA, or the company you need to worry about.... It's us, the F/A group...

Stand Up...For Yourselves...
For each other...


Just my opinion...

Print this and hang this in the crew lounges. It comes down to fear. A fear of the unknown, period. The fact that people have already said "I'm not splitting!" before anything has even been negotiated speaks volumes about our group as a whole.

 

[DesertFA66]

To split with pilots or not to split?

One has to ask themselves, why have negotiations for a single contract taken so long? It's becoming clear that Mike Flores and the west union have been at odds for quite some time on how to proceed with the pilot debacle throwing a big old wrench in the system. In essence, MF has waited for the pilot debacle to work itself out, now that he see it's not going to, he is now ready to move forward over the past few months.

Why has the company reached agreements with ever other work group? Our unions were not able to agree, some delay tactics have been used waiting for pilots because the East didn't want to split from them. The company was also uncertain and used it's own tactics.

The East (union and FA's) has been afraid to move forward without the pilots...Pilots need to be left to fend for themselves and the Flight Attendants need to move forward without them. Plain and simple. FA's need to watch out for their own best interests, and that is a solid contract with pay raises and duty rigs and rest requirements that the pilots get.

Do East FA's really think it's worth the wait? It's not worth the wait. The pilots are a mess and will continue to be a mess.

Transcon turn days are already part of the negotiation process, as a percentage, not a given, so East FA's don't need to be afraid of them, they will be there, but not as plentiful as the west enjoys today. It's already been part of the negotiations, so there is already movement on moving away from the pilots for a small percentage of pairings. West FA's like having that option, but it's not a make or break deal.

West FA's just understand that life can go on with a split. West FA's aren't always split from their pilots, some trips are actually flown with the same pilots for two or three days, not many but some.

Get over the fear and move on towards one agreement. FA's have to have it in there, but again not every trip will be built that way.

 

[ebwgs]

To split with pilots or not to split?

One has to ask themselves, why have negotiations for a single contract taken so long? It's becoming clear that Mike Flores and the west union have been at odds for quite some time on how to proceed with the pilot debacle throwing a big old wrench in the system. In essence, MF has waited for the pilot debacle to work itself out, now that he see it's not going to, he is now ready to move forward over the past few months.

Why has the company reached agreements with ever other work group? Our unions were not able to agree, some delay tactics have been used waiting for pilots because the East didn't want to split from them. The company was also uncertain and used it's own tactics.

The East (union and FA's) has been afraid to move forward without the pilots...Pilots need to be left to fend for themselves and the Flight Attendants need to move forward without them. Plain and simple. FA's need to watch out for their own best interests, and that is a solid contract with pay raises and duty rigs and rest requirements that the pilots get.

Do East FA's really think it's worth the wait? It's not worth the wait. The pilots are a mess and will continue to be a mess.

Transcon turn days are already part of the negotiation process, as a percentage, not a given, so East FA's don't need to be afraid of them, they will be there, but not as plentiful as the west enjoys today. It's already been part of the negotiations, so there is already movement on moving away from the pilots for a small percentage of pairings. West FA's like having that option, but it's not a make or break deal.

West FA's just understand that life can go on with a split. West FA's aren't always split from their pilots, some trips are actually flown with the same pilots for two or three days, not many but some.

Get over the fear and move on towards one agreement. FA's have to have it in there, but again not every trip will be built that way.

"West FA's" have only been unionized since 1994. They have only negotiated 1 maybe 2 contracts in their unionized lives, so I'll happily take my chances with the more seasoned east flight attendants that have a heck of a lot more negotiating experience. I'm not saying the east negotiators are perfect, but I'd rather dance with the devil I know for the one I don't know.

East flight attendants aren't "afraid" of "transcon turn days" but for many of us opposed to compromising the "Me-Too" we know that the relative "small percentage" of transcon turns that you allude may very well inflate to a greater percentage of transcon turns. I'm sorry but I'm not interested in PHLLAXPHL turns. You may be out accustomed to those dog trips out west but then you've only been organized since the mid-90s. You don't know any better.

As far as splitting, you say that "West FA's have to have it in there" as far as a new contract. Wrong. There are greater numbers on the east side. And if the east votes against it there won't be any splitting and the west will have to live with that.

Preserve the "Me-Too."

 

[Travelpro72]

Ok so say we keep the "me-too" language and negotiate around it with the stipulation that if the pilots improve upon the current "me-too" language we'll receive the improved language. Thats all fine and good BUT do you see where the company will run with this? We ratify a contract and the company decides to implement changes when it pleases them. PBS ring a bell? I can see us fighting for the protections that were "promised" in negotiations. If we can't negotiate a suitable contract by the middle of 2010 we better split and split fast. I'm sorry but I'm not about to sit here with this current contract until the pilots iron out their differences. Stop hiding behind another union group and grow some G'damn man berries already.