AFA Labor Thread Aug 27- Union Issues Here

[VAflyGal]

You mean to tell me that when you were separate from the pilots, the sky didn't fall, and you weren't raped and pillaged by the villagers? You were able to protect and defend yourself?

This can't be so. Please don't interrupt the fear mongering already in session.

People just don't like change, plain and simple. It's the whole "Who Moved My Cheese" paradigm shift. I for one look forward to the upcoming PHL lec meeting and the MEC meeting. We have to get this thing moving. It's gonna be a scene when January rolls around here. Itest, you are SO RIGHT about the pilots never voting for anything with Nic and it's gonna be a steaming hot mess after LOA 93 comes and goes.
I am confident the JNC will negotiate something worthy or a look if we are introducing splitting and seriously considering it.
I need a raise

 

[Travelpro72]

What astounds me is many that are against splitting have absolutely NO idea on what to do instead. The pilots issue with Nic and LOA93 as mentioned is only going to make things worse. Those precious (whatever is left) protections known as "me-too's" aren't enough for me to not look into the possibility of splitting. If I hear "back at Piedmont" one more time on the line too I'm gonna lose it. Ok we get it...ya worked at Piedmont and you were separated from the pilots. Do you HONESTLY think that what the JNC brings us to review will resemble the contract from back then? I mean how G'damn closed minded can a group of employees truly be? I'm just flabbergasted at how many are vehemently against splitting before seeing the entire deal. Ya know, I may get slammed for this but I'll dare say that many who will read the upcoming tentative agreement (whenever it is) won't understand a damn thing they're reading anyway. Hell many can't calculate when they go illegal. Please.

 

[WhatBag?]

Just spoke to a friend based in PHX going out on a 36 hour 4 day. Yes, he will be wiped, but do 3 of those babies totaling 102 hrs and 18 days off? Where do I sign up?

 

[hp_fa]

How on earth do you get a 36-hour four day trip?

 

[VAflyGal]

Just spoke to a friend based in PHX going out on a 36 hour 4 day. Yes, he will be wiped, but do 3 of those babies totaling 102 hrs and 18 days off? Where do I sign up?

I wonder how many of us would cry "I'm 30 in 7 and can't do that trip"!? Ooh there's a meeeee toooo we can be thankful for.

"The maximum number of hours is 90". Blah blah blah blah.

I cannot freaking wait for pref bidding to get implemented.

 

[WhatBag?]

How on earth do you get a 36-hour four day trip?

It was one in the block.

 

[galley princess]

Everyone who has posted here as not being in favor of a pilot split has cited many reasons other than the "protections" that their contract provides.

-Minimum duty days: as I have said before, I have no desire to be flogged up and down the Eastern seaboard for 14 hours, and I fully believe that if we tamper with the duty day limitations that is exactly what they'll do. It won't be a PHL-LAX, LAX-PHL. It'll be some other rancid configuration. And guess who will get it most of the time? Reserves. As many have told you, not all of us want to kill ourselves with a 14 hour hard time day. What about the poor reserve who has toddlers at home? Or umm a life?

Your response: We want high time trips. Build in the contract limitations and rules to prevent abuse.

Mine: No thanks. I've seen how this management respects our contract. The words "Grieve it" are ingrained in their vocabulary and leave the flight attendant up a tree. Any murky shade of grey in the language and they drive a truck through it. Me, I'm practical I want the simplest solution to the reality of the situation. I could care less what it says, what they will DO with it is my concern.

-What I also said is that prudent people will wait and see what the FAA coughs up regarding fatigue before negotiating because we might get what we want for free, and not have to use valuable negotiating dollars.

Your response: You want a contract NOW, not when the pilots can sort their mess out.

Mine: Understood. But knowing the new rules will give leverage that wasn't there before. I believe that they are worth waiting for. Not to mention that there are so many open sections of this non existent tentative it might as well be a blank piece of paper. Even if you got your way and they motored under the premise of Pilot-FA split, you're still not going to see a contract before late 2010, most likely 2011.

-Hotels. Well, I've seen this in action and we're still linked. AWA has plopped FAs in hotels that are dangerous, seedy, unclean and bug infested. If you don't think that they'll find a way to degrade our hotels you're crazy. The only thing that got the crew out of a European hotel when the AC didn't work was the pilots threatening too fatigued to fly because they couldn't sleep.

For the company this is simple: it's tough to replace pilots, it's a week to replace FAs. Keep the pilots reasonably happy and screw the FAs. Now obviously we don't have happy pilots, but there are certain things that are easier when you're paired.

-Pilot Issue: I think every FA is in agreement on this. No, we don't want to wait for them, at the same time we want to proceed with extreme caution. Once this is given away you NEVER get it back, even allowing this discussion is dangerous IMHO, because it may be difficult to backtrack if it proves, as I am pretty sure that it will, not worth what the company wants to pay for it.

Finally, why is ANYONE in the mood to GIVE UP anything? As I've said, this is about GAIN.

A note: This non existent contract isn't even at 25%. US FAs are pretty cool people. It would be nice if we could respect eachother's opinions without derision of any kind. Make your best argument, if you don't convince, don't stoop to name calling. There's a thread that has that nonsense already, it certainly isn't reflective of the majority of FAs at US. By in large, we're a nice bunch.

 

[hp_fa]

Finally, why is ANYONE in the mood to GIVE UP anything? As I've said, this is about GAIN.

Princess,

The company also wants to gain and that is why the parties negotiate. It is unreasonable to expect that any party to any bi-lateral negotiation is going to simply rollover and let the other party make all the gains. So, unfortunately, AFA will need to prioritize what gains it seeks and negotiate with those priorities in mind.

Unfortunately the company, by its nature, will be unified in coming to the table. The union will have differences within its membership, which would be true of any union approaching a negotiation simply because it represents a group of people who may have different goals. This provides the company with an advantage because you can bet your last dollar that they are aware of any divisions that exist in the union. Also, remember that you basically need to be able to convince a mediator your position is meritorious because that mediator will have the power to release AFA from arbitration in connection with the terms of the RLA.

The bottom line is to not set unreasonable expectations and to prioritize what it is that you want to accomplish.

 

[ebwgs]

Many employees have succumbed to the regional attitude, and have become comfortable. Afraid/ resistant of change. Complacent. You see it everyday. Hell, most of the men can't even find the time to put on a tie. And, for the most part, they became global powerhouses. USAir did/ is not.

Let's look at your term "narrow minded". What I find narrow minded is that people are saying they will fight tooth and nail to protect the "me too" clause, but still can't tell me how it protects them any more than our own strong contract language would (other than we won't be able to check each others hotel rooms...).


So go ahead, keep pushing for retainment of that "regional feeling" (is that less offensive?), and convince everyone and anyone to stay with the pilots, before even reading any tentative agreement that the JNC comes up with. No matter, I am sure most FA's have no problem with this BK contract we are working under till ~2015.

After all, the majority voted YES, right?

I'm sorry Irestwell but you are the one who raised the dubious "regional" argument. For those of us who want to maintain the "Me-Too" I'm willing to bet that the notion of us wanting to maintain our "regional" mindset, as you would have it, has nothing to do with our wanting to preserve "Me-Too.". We know that, based on past practices, whatever "strong language" is written into the contract that the company will breach it. We know this to be fact.

I surmise that you don't know me, and although it is not my intention to teach you a course in ebwgs101, if you did know anything about me you'd know not to even attempt to paint me with a broad "regional mentality" brush. And yes, the fact that you alone have seized upon the whole "regional" argument and have attempted to attach it to those of us who disagree with you on the "Me-Too" issue does speak to your narrow-mindedness on this issue. I don't know what your seniority is, or whether you're a blockholder or a reserve, and frankly I don't care, but I do care when out of disagreement, you try to denigrate opposing opinions and relegate them to something, i.e., "regional thinking" that has nothing to do with--in my case for sure--the issue at hand. I realize you're frustated, but your are misplacing and misdirecting your frustration. Chill!

 

[Travelpro72]

I'm willing to wait as I'm sure the JNC is to see what the FAA ruling is for the pilots. I'm sure we'll see the changes announced in the not to distant future. I have been hearing the end of October to November. The new changes will be implemented in stages as well in order to give all airlines a chance to adapt to the changes I'd think. When the changes brought down from the FAA are issued it STILL will not resolve the pilots issues. That said the possibility of splitting should be visited. See what the JNC comes up with and make an informed decision when it's time to vote. Even if the negotiations are slow and may not finish until the end of 2010 or early 2011 it will be YEARS, yes YEARS earlier than any resolution between the east and west pilots. Anyone that believes these guys/gals will have their issues ironed out any sooner is delusional. Many flight attendants CANNOT afford to wait and shouldn't have to continue a good many more years under this concessionary contract forced upon us in bankruptcy. Couple the east f/a's and their crappy contract with our poor and I do mean POOR brothers and sisters on the west and I see no choice but to move forward. Again....wait, review then vote.

 

[flybynite]

I love a good healthy debate. It's good for the soul. However, putting someone down in the process just means you've lost the debate.

As for me, if the company puts something on the table that smells fishy, it is fishy. It can't be dressed up as anything good for me. Or you.

Keep your thinking caps on ladies and gents.

 

[WCT]

Just think out of the box and pilot world for once!!

This might be the biggest problem on the East as regards to seniority and blockholders. IF you are able to split away from the pilots, than more fa's should be able to hold a block and secondary line v.s being on reserve for so many years.
Vaflygal, the Transcon turns do not go to reserve flight attendants, all lineholders keep these precious trips, including one day trips, and Hawaii. Most of our Reserves out West are stuck with 18 credit 4 day trips, with lots of West coast turns, 5 legs and 9 hour layovers. This needs to change, because they are the same trips that ALWAYS stay in Company Open Time all month. No thx.
More productive flying if you get RID OF PILOTS!! Rest provisions are in place. The worst scenario we come into is an 8 hour minimum rest if we are late. If you are working an Transcon turn, and you are late due to w/x or m/x, you can refuse to fly if it goes over 14 and a half hours. IF you choose to work over you get an extra 7 and half credits extra pay. Sometimes the pilots will be on the same delay and overnite, so your minimum goes up a couple hours.
I am also not giving up my vacation time on the WEST!!!!!!!
I REFUSE to vote for a contract with NO FLEXIBILITY, and NO ONE should be on RESERVE FOR 18+ Years!!!!!!!!!!
That is PLANE WRONG! :angry:
Forget about the PILOTS, lets move on for all of US FA's NOW and get a JOINT CONTRACT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Zarah]

Most of our Reserves out West are stuck with 18 credit 4 day trips, with lots of West coast turns, 5 legs and 9 hour layovers.

More productive flying if you get RID OF PILOTS!!

How exactly are 18 hour 4 days more productive?

 

[flybynite]

Sounds like he's been drinking that darn kool-aid again.............

 

[galley princess]

WCT,
My initial instinct to your raised assertion that the company was negotiating for their own gain was to respond,

YEAH, NOT MY PROBLEM.

But I do recognize that you're right, prioritizing will definitely occur. I guess the problem is, everybody's priorities are a tad bit different.

What's interesting here and perhaps not apparent to the WEST is that EAST is not unaware of what it is like to fly separate from the pilots. Piedmont and PSA were split, Eastern was split and then there's those of us from other carriers. So WE KNOW what it's like, and some of us just really prefer it as it is.

US is a messy conglomeration of old and brutally new. The old weird stuff is costly. We KNOW the bidsheet is unwieldy and business -unfriendly. We KNOW that being paired with the pilots is not standard in the industry and is also costly. But guess what? WE LIKE it. So if they want us to give it up it is going to cost them. DEARLY, as far as I am concerned. Otherwise, I'm not interested.

And you know what? I don't think that they're all that interested either, because just like the purser program, they've never been willing to pay us for concessions. They went to a bankruptcy court and did it the dirty way instead, well, they didn't get either of those things and they're not getting them now for free either. When and if they are ready to compensate me for giving up what I prefer, then I will vote for it. Until then, it's a no, and I vote.

Finally, I have to see some kind of mechanism to protect the lone FA who will be flying some God awful trip on a snow storm wrecked separate pairing from being driven into the dust with the question "Are you refusing to fly?"

Just my humble opinion.