AFA Labor Thread Aug 27- Union Issues Here

[john john]

Why not have USAPA and AFA have joint negotiation with management. Create a joint alliance association have it approved by NMB and negotiation specific articles that pertain to both parties

 

[Travelpro72]

To split or not to split. Ohhhh that is the question. I know it's been asked before and by myself included, "because of the pilots issues and the me-too clauses we share your willing to sit with this contract until they iron out their differences"? I say HELL to the NO! ! ! ! I don't wanna split but I also know I DO NOT want to sit with this contract any longer than we have to and WILL NOT vote no on splitting if it means we can finish a contract with IRON CLAD language. This is the most unproductive contract that ALREADY screws you left, right and sideways (thank you me-too language) and it's leaving many a flight attendant broke with no life. Can splitting bring up new ways to screw us? Sure! I simply don't believe that if we agree to split Mike Flores is going to accept language that would cause a NO vote. Why would he waste his time? Like him or not he's not stupid. Look at what is presented before saying no.

 

[WCT]

And I sure in the heck don't want the PHX base to turn into a stagnant RSV system like on the East with fa's on reserve for 18years. :down:

 

[HP_JACK]

Coucil 66 Recall Them All!

 

[hp_fa]

Jack, are any folks running or said they plan to run?

 

[galley princess]

I don't have the link but I did read an article in the Herald Tribune regarding the proposed new pilot fatigue rules. It sounded pretty reasonable. It said that the conversation is to limit the out of control RJ schedules and build legalities around day/night parameters.

For example they cited allowing idea of East-West turns if the flight departed in the AM base time and returned in the PM, making it simply a long day but no weird body clock shifts.

Example: depart PHL at 8am get to LAX at 1300, turn the plane at 1430 return to PHL at 2000. (AC dependent, and obviously I am using East coast time, but the idea transfers to whatever time you're in).

Currently they can't do this. It actually sounds like it will allow for longer flying as long as the time shifts aren't fatigue producing. Conversely, it is going to limit the 12 leg days for RJs.

As some of us have said, there is no point in having the "Split from the pilots" conversation with the company until the FAA hands down these rules. We may get more productive trips anyway and not give up what some of us prefer.

I realize that there are a lot of miserable folks who want change, any change, but we've waited four years, none of us want to give UP anything. This contract should only be about GAIN.

Finally, actions speak louder than words. They don't even pay us honestly, requiring us to do claims for per diem and other pay that used to be automatic. Throw that in with all of the contract violations that don't even get reported and forget it. I like having me-too FARs behind me, at least that will shut their airline down if they don't follow them.

 

[ebwgs]

With all due respect Itestwell, it does not take 4 years to negotiate a contract. What I take great concern with is all the sudden the company is concerned about the pilots not reaching an agreement and that will stall our ratification, so that is why they purposed split language. If this company was so concerned about us reaching an agreement where have they been the past 4 years? As far as I am concerned, I am not giving this company one more dime of mine. If we vote to split from the pilots we will be giving this company a huge windfall of cost savings and efficiences, that right from the mouth of MF. I'm sorry why should we have to fund our wage and benefit increases that we have earned? Besides the fact that if they can make our pairings more productive so to speak, that means less flight attenadants they will need. Ex-our lines are built to the pilots legalities which we know is less than what we would have. 80 hours lines will now be built to 90 hour lines, do the math. Also add to that now our 80 hour lines will have some soft time(or claim,rig what ever you want to call it)built into that line. We won't see any soft time any more, you will be flying every bit of that 90 hours.

If you don't think they are going to run your butt ragged, guess again. Just because every other airline does it, doesn't mean we have too. If you want to use the well everyone else does it, ok everyone else is making more money then us too, everyone else stays in better hotels too, everyone else has crew bunks too. The list is endless.

I will NOT under any circumstances vote to a contract that contains split language. For the record, I am one of those dig your heels in the dirt and stand up to this company PIT people. I have put on that green shirt before and held a sign, I am fully prepared to do it again.

Amen brother/sister!!!!!!!!

 

[flybynite]

Amen brother/sister!!!!!!!!

Ditto!!

 

[Itestwell]

To split or not to split. Ohhhh that is the question. I know it's been asked before and by myself included, "because of the pilots issues and the me-too clauses we share your willing to sit with this contract until they iron out their differences"? I say HELL to the NO! ! ! ! I don't wanna split but I also know I DO NOT want to sit with this contract any longer than we have to and WILL NOT vote no on splitting if it means we can finish a contract with IRON CLAD language. This is the most unproductive contract that ALREADY screws you left, right and sideways (thank you me-too language) and it's leaving many a flight attendant broke with no life. Can splitting bring up new ways to screw us? Sure! I simply don't believe that if we agree to split Mike Flores is going to accept language that would cause a NO vote. Why would he waste his time? Like him or not he's not stupid. Look at what is presented before saying no.

They don't get it, Trav. Let's keep that regional mentality. After all, that's all we know. USAir. We'll get ya there!

It's all they know, and they are scared of learning anything new. Yet, what makes me laugh, is the next tentative contract, whenever that may be, will meet TONS of hostility. Split or no split. No one will be for it. But, strangely enough, it will pass.

 

[Itestwell]

For the record, I am one of those dig your heels in the dirt and stand up to this company PIT people. I have put on that green shirt before and held a sign, I am fully prepared to do it again.

Dig your heels in, gurl. Keep it safe. Keep the ' burgh alive!

 

[galley princess]

Ahhhhm.

I have actually WORKED for a company where pilots and flight attendants were split. So my opinions are based on experience rather than some unfocused hopeful vision of the future.

Dismissing those who disagree with you as fearful and regionally minded strikes me as rather small minded in itself.

Luckily, we're a diverse bunch with lots of different ideas, and we all get to vote. Speaking for myself I just don't want a runaway train started named "Split with the pilots." Tends to take on a track of its own and may be difficult to stop if and when it proves faulty.

 

[ebwgs]

Ahhhhm.

I have actually WORKED for a company where pilots and flight attendants were split. So my opinions are based on experience rather than some unfocused hopeful vision of the future.

Dismissing those who disagree with you as fearful and regionally minded strikes me as rather small minded in itself.

Luckily, we're a diverse bunch with lots of different ideas, and we all get to vote. Speaking for myself I just don't want a runaway train started named "Split with the pilots." Tends to take on a track of its own and may be difficult to stop if and when it proves faulty.

I totally agree with this post. It's one thing to honestly disagree with each other, but to deride our different points of view as, in the prior post, being "regionally minded" is a bit haughty and narrow minded. I've never been based in the "Burgh." Been based in Philly 3/4 of my career here at US Airways and the other 1/4 in BWI and DCA. IPrior to that I spent my whole life in my hometown of Los Angeles. The most time I've ever spent in beautiful Pittsburgh were the five weeks I spent there in training. So I'm certainly not bound by some perceived myopic PIT mentality that is resistant to change.

I disagree with those who are willing to kill the Me-Too clause. There are those who disagree with me. It's cool. When the time comes to vote I hope that the majority of us who agree with me on this issue vote. If they don't then I'll live with the results. And I'll do so without degrading anyone. Let's just agree to disagree, and when the chips fall we'll see what kind of work rules we'll have. That's just me being "congenially minded."

 

[VAflyGal]

I totally agree with this post. It's one thing to honestly disagree with each other, but to deride our different points of view as, in the prior post, being "regionally minded" is a bit haughty and narrow minded. I've never been based in the "Burgh." Been based in Philly 3/4 of my career here at US Airways and the other 1/4 in BWI and DCA. IPrior to that I spent my whole life in my hometown of Los Angeles. The most time I've ever spent in beautiful Pittsburgh were the five weeks I spent there in training. So I'm certainly not bound by some perceived myopic PIT mentality that is resistant to change.

I disagree with those who are willing to kill the Me-Too clause. There are those who disagree with me. It's cool. When the time comes to vote I hope that the majority of us who agree with me on this issue vote. If they don't then I'll live with the results. And I'll do so without degrading anyone. Let's just agree to disagree, and when the chips fall we'll see what kind of work rules we'll have. That's just me being "congenially minded."

I've worked for an airline where we were split from our pilots. I don't get what all the crying is for. Mike has said we will not have a contract placed before us that does not offer us the same or better hotels, duty days, rigs, rest, etc. Basically if (and it's a huge if that will be funded monetarily in other ways) we split from the pilots we will have all the "luxuries" afforded them. I for one am okay with it if we get some serious incentives. I'm a big girl who can take care of myself. I carry my contract, have my union numbers in my speed dial, and know how to call for the hotel van.

Sorry that some people will lose the ability to carry on their affairs as they have - and I'm not dismissing the importance and loveliness that coming and going as a crew brings, but I don't care anymore. Pull up your huggies and deal with problems on your own. Half the time when we are standing on the curb for 25 minutes waiting for the hotel van, the pilots him and haw about getting a cab. If it were me I would have hailed on the minute the contract time allowed. The company will never "get it" unless we enforce our contract.

 

[Itestwell]

I totally agree with this post. It's one thing to honestly disagree with each other, but to deride our different points of view as, in the prior post, being "regionally minded" is a bit haughty and narrow minded. I've never been based in the "Burgh." Been based in Philly 3/4 of my career here at US Airways and the other 1/4 in BWI and DCA. IPrior to that I spent my whole life in my hometown of Los Angeles. The most time I've ever spent in beautiful Pittsburgh were the five weeks I spent there in training. So I'm certainly not bound by some perceived myopic PIT mentality that is resistant to change.

I disagree with those who are willing to kill the Me-Too clause. There are those who disagree with me. It's cool. When the time comes to vote I hope that the majority of us who agree with me on this issue vote. If they don't then I'll live with the results. And I'll do so without degrading anyone. Let's just agree to disagree, and when the chips fall we'll see what kind of work rules we'll have. That's just me being "congenially minded."

I am sorry if I offended anyone by referring to USAir as "regional". As an airline that has been trying to identify itself and become a major player since the 80's, we are nothing more than a large regional, shrinking the West once again. Deja vu, anyone? Many employees have succumbed to the regional attitude, and have become comfortable. Afraid/ resistant of change. Complacent. You see it everyday. Hell, most of the men can't even find the time to put on a tie. Looking at any other major that is separated from their cockpit crews, not one of them faces the challenges that many of you think we'll face here on a daily basis. And, for the most part, they became global powerhouses. USAir did/ is not.

Let's look at your term "narrow minded". What I find narrow minded is that people are saying they will fight tooth and nail to protect the "me too" clause, but still can't tell me how it protects them any more than our own strong contract language would (other than we won't be able to check each others hotel rooms...).

What I find narrow minded, is that many forget that a pilot contract is waaaaay down the road, and that they will never, ever vote in anything that contains the Nic. You think they are pissed now? Wait till they get denied LOA 93 snapbacks in January. All this, while the bottom 20% of our seniority lists (that would be reserves) can't afford to eat. (I'm assuming we'll hear more about this like we do every November, when most of the '90s heads back to the reserve sheet).

So go ahead, keep pushing for retainment of that "regional feeling" (is that less offensive?), and convince everyone and anyone to stay with the pilots, before even reading any tentative agreement that the JNC comes up with. No matter, I am sure most FA's have no problem with this BK contract we are working under till ~2015.

After all, the majority voted YES, right?

 

[Itestwell]

I've worked for an airline where we were split from our pilots. I don't get what all the crying is for. Mike has said we will not have a contract placed before us that does not offer us the same or better hotels, duty days, rigs, rest, etc. Basically if (and it's a huge if that will be funded monetarily in other ways) we split from the pilots we will have all the "luxuries" afforded them. I for one am okay with it if we get some serious incentives. I'm a big girl who can take care of myself. I carry my contract, have my union numbers in my speed dial, and know how to call for the hotel van.

Sorry that some people will lose the ability to carry on their affairs as they have - and I'm not dismissing the importance and loveliness that coming and going as a crew brings, but I don't care anymore. Pull up your huggies and deal with problems on your own. Half the time when we are standing on the curb for 25 minutes waiting for the hotel van, the pilots him and haw about getting a cab. If it were me I would have hailed on the minute the contract time allowed. The company will never "get it" unless we enforce our contract.

You mean to tell me that when you were separate from the pilots, the sky didn't fall, and you weren't raped and pillaged by the villagers? You were able to protect and defend yourself?

This can't be so. Please don't interrupt the fear mongering already in session.