US Pilots Labor Thread Aug 27-Sep 3 KEEP ON TOPIC

[Hawkhunter]

Wait until the December Bid Packages arrive. You will see plenty of 25 year U guys working over Christmas Holidays.

Even the DELETED BY MODERATOR might have to work Christmas this year, and of course he's a 30 year U guy. Think of all the money he's making though!

And JS who got to be number one because of DOH will have Christmas off. Hey J, it will be a while before you can bid PHX. My guess is you voted option B.

 

[BoeingBoy]

you'll note USAPA has not amended it's CBL's to conform to the Nic..quite the contrary....this is far from over.

Try to keep up...USAPA is absolutely free to negotiate for a DOH integration in any future merger, in full compliance with it's constitution. That's been the case all along, hence no need or requirement to change the constitution to "conform to Nic." Good luck with that, BTW, since any future merger will be like the current one - the other pilot group will have pilots with less longevity flying the same or bigger equipment and will not be willing to let those "20 year F/O's" take their captains seats away from them.

What USAPA couldn't legally do is rewrite an agreed upon and settled integrated list by merely putting a different methodology in it's constitution.

Jim

PS - ALPA said that the Nic list conformed to it's merger policy so any talk about Nic not conforming to policy is flat out wrong.

 

[cleardirect]

Not suprisingly you missed the point again........your 15 years out West UNDER NIC gets you Christmas off in the EAST and the 25 year EAST guy works....UNDER NIC....that's why

VNIIMN

No, what we have here is situational blindness. The east focuses on DOH and what the west has while ignoring the situation around them.

Under separate ops. The number 1 line holding 190 F/O. He will have Christmas off. How long has he been at US Airways?

Now the junior 330 line holding captain. He is going to have to work Christmas. How long has he been at US Airways?

So here you have a 25 years guy working and a 15 years guy off on Christmas. Oh the shock and horror. It happens all the time it is not unique. But then again it took 25 years at US Airways to hold a line before the merger.

This entire argument is getting tiresome. The injunction is in place. USAPA is negotiating for the Nicalau. That is the list we are going to use. Any other speculation is a waste of time. As Parker said in the video. Accept the list or find something else to do.

 

[nic4us]

Nic,

You want to gain at our expense and we want to gain at your expense. You keep saying that, as others here, over and over again.
Everything else discussed is plain BS. That's why we are separate forever unless this poor excuse for an airline goes out of business. Of course, you can blame that on us too. Oh, excuse me, you (the west) already has.

Somewhat true, however there is a huge difference between seeking to implemment an agreed upon solution reached by a third party neutral, and going to extreme measures to avoid that result and impose your own will at the direct detriment of the West.

The West sought the best possible outcome for itself at the arbitration. Yes, the better the result for us, the more it will cost you, and vice versa. It is quite okay to be an advocate for your group when negotiations are occurring. Seeking to reneg on those negotiations, is another matter.

The West has not broken any contracts and lived up to its side of the bargain. The same cannot be said of the east.

 

[HPearlyretiree]

Not likely, my feathery-tongued friend. The two groups aren't ever going to fly together.

Yes they will, though I doubt many will want to fly with you. Drop the entitlement crap, no one owes you anything. You control your life, if you suffer so much, then leave and do what your heart tells you. Plenty of others dying to take your place.

 

[flyer63]

Cleared direct stated:

The injunction is in place. USAPA is negotiating for the Nicalau. That is the list we are going to use. Any other speculation is a waste of time. As Parker said in the video. Accept the list or find something else to do.


I'm glad you are so sure of yourself... At least I'm smart enough to put IMHO.....

and now you believe what Parker has to say? and by the way that isn't what he said.

 

[luvthe9]

Cleared direct stated:

The injunction is in place. USAPA is negotiating for the Nicalau. That is the list we are going to use. Any other speculation is a waste of time. As Parker said in the video. Accept the list or find something else to do.

Nothing will happen till the appeal is heard, there will be NO joint contract for quite some time, which in turn means no NIC.

 

[cleardirect]

Cleared direct stated:

The injunction is in place. USAPA is negotiating for the Nicalau. That is the list we are going to use. Any other speculation is a waste of time. As Parker said in the video. Accept the list or find something else to do.


I'm glad you are so sure of yourself... At least I'm smart enough to put IMHO.....

and now you believe what Parker has to say? and by the way that isn't what he said.

Watch the crew news from PHX 8/18. Under the USAPA heading.

Hopefully we are getting close.

We have had milestones along the way.

If I don’t accept this I can chose to go do something else.

Yes that is what Parker said. That if someone choses not to accept the outcome then leave and go do something else. Listen closely. Parker understands that the that appeal is a formality. The Nicolau is the list. That would be the we are getting closer comment followed by the we have had milestones comment.

We usapa has done everything they can then it is time for the east to accept the results or leave.

But everyone elas eunderstands that this list is it, except for the east pilots.

Watch the video and tell me that is not what he said. "If I don’t accept this I can chose to go do something else."

 

[Megasnoop]

Not to bore the readers with your recent reply (#102), I won’t counterpoint your whole post, Clue. Your replies wasn’t on point anyway. To summarize, more seasoned board-friend, this latest NIC depo revelation has you lashing out at me. I just delivered the message. Now your freaked over what Nicolau might have said. You should be more freaked what he might learn. That goes with being freaked that all the facts will eventually come out before the Ninth rules and before you get NIC implemented. The truth coming out about the Kirby is bad enough. Obvious why. With the legal process grinding too slowly for you, your bird in the hand might fly away. So you think by the shear will and power of your board posts here and elsewhere, we’ll just quietly submit. Dream on.

Your second point was more anger than sensible debate and totally off point from what I wrote. If you want debate, stay on point.

“Depose until the cows come home?†Clue, that’s anger, frustration or fear? MDAs not our deal. No telling what Nicolau said or learned, but we’re not involved. We’re not funding MDA or sharing notes (not sure on that). Haber’s using with house money from ALPA losses to play this one out on his own. He doesn’t need us fine-tuning his work of art.

You guys still don't get it. The real world (in the form of the 9th and an LOA 84 loss) is going to hit like a ton of bricks--when you are aviating over the pond in the right seat, I strongly suggest you get ready to get summarily tossed under the nearest bus by the gent to your left--it is the AAA way.

What happens in the Ninth or LOA84 will happen regardless of what anger you post. Your not going to stop either. We’ve been kicked before. Nothing surprises us. On a recent “real world†flight, the “gent†was 58. He brought up, not me, his group’s attitude change since age 65. He admitted his support wasn’t all there for USAPA before he got an extra 5 years. 2 years ago he wanted a contract bad. I could understand that. Times have changed. An extra $800K made the difference. We knew it made the vote difference. USAPA isn’t gloating over that extra 5 years, only relief we got it. The 35-50K/yr claims are falling on deaf ears, even if accurate, but their not.

The West has not broken any contracts and lived up to its side of the bargain. The same cannot be said of the east.

I'm not sure your point. What contracts did USAPA break? Since USAPA won the election, the west has had no standing, so no contract to live up to. Bargains? We had to go to arbitration to get you to pay your dues and had to go to court to stop the harassment. Blame the AAA MEC all you want. We blame them too. USAPA is not the old AAA MEC. Trying to morph us as the straw man when ALPA was responsible? It isn't flying.

 

[jetjok1]

Somewhat true, however there is a huge difference between seeking to implemment an agreed upon solution reached by a third party neutral, and going to extreme measures to avoid that result and impose your own will at the direct detriment of the West.

The West sought the best possible outcome for itself at the arbitration. Yes, the better the result for us, the more it will cost you, and vice versa. It is quite okay to be an advocate for your group when negotiations are occurring. Seeking to reneg on those negotiations, is another matter.

The West has not broken any contracts and lived up to its side of the bargain. The same cannot be said of the east.

Nic,

I haven't reneged on anything! If it were up to me, I would have abided by an arbitration. After all, both sides agreed to the old geezer! Unless there was foul play along the way, (you know, dirty pool, windfall!) then all bets are off. Don't know if that's the case but I understand the law and arbitration enough to know what it means when the decision is rendered. I'm a union member and along for the ride. I've been doing this for 26 years and I'm losing interest because it's the same story over and over again. I'm here, not because I need the money (i have plenty of that), I'm still here and will stay here because I still enjoy the flying. Until I wake up and don't want to come to work, or get denied enough J/S's, or they change the rest/commute rules, or the company goes out of business...........nobody's getting my seat.

One other thing...........when the appeal decision is rendered........whichever way it goes............we live with it and move on. No more BS appeals to a higher court.

 

[ClueByFour]

Not likely, my feathery-tongued friend. The two groups aren't ever going to fly together.

Which could have happened with ALPA. The entire (misguided) point of USAPA was to try a runaround that was clearly doomed to failure. A few million dollars in dues money and lord only knows how much contractual raises later, you will reach the same result.

BTW, since any future merger will be like the current one - the other pilot group will have pilots with less longevity flying the same or bigger equipment and will not be willing to let those "20 year F/O's" take their captains seats away from them.

Not only that, but under McCaskill-Bond, it's essentially going to end up (yes, you guessed it) in binding arbitration (using Nicolau as the list, of course). Oh, the irony.

 

[cubfan]

Watch the crew news from PHX 8/18. Under the USAPA heading.






Yes that is what Parker said. That if someone choses not to accept the outcome then leave and go do something else. Listen closely. Parker understands that the that appeal is a formality. The Nicolau is the list. That would be the we are getting closer comment followed by the we have had milestones comment.

We usapa has done everything they can then it is time for the east to accept the results or leave.

But everyone elas eunderstands that this list is it, except for the east pilots.

Watch the video and tell me that is not what he said. "If I don’t accept this I can chose to go do something else."

wasn't he referring to dues?

 

[hp_fa]

What contracts did USAPA break? Since USAPA won the election, the west has had no standing, so no contract to live up to. Bargains? We had to go to arbitration to get you to pay your dues and had to go to court to stop the harassment. Blame the AAA MEC all you want. We blame them too. USAPA is not the old AAA MEC. Trying to morph us as the straw man when ALPA was responsible? It isn't flying.

Wrong answer.

When USAPA won the representational election it also inherited all of the previous union's rights and obligations. One of the rights was to have an existing CBA in place so that there were agreed upon rates of pay and work provisions. One of the obligations was to live by the Nicolau award, which had been fully completed under ALPA merger policy, been reviewed by ALPA and had been submitted to the company as the official seniority list on 12/20/07. Three and a half months before USAPA became the sole bargaining agent.

Unless an absolute miracle occurs in SFO during December, USAPA is going to find out that it has a full duty to accept and defend the Nicolau seniority award. Once that integration is complete USAPA is then able to utilize DOH for any future mergers if it so chooses, but will not be able to use DOH to re-do it's own post-Nicolau seniority list. (In other words, once a Nicolau-based list is finalized that seniority order is set and any future transactions cannot move any existing pilot's spot ahead or behind any other existing pilot's spot. In short, no undoing of Nicolau.)

As for West not having standing, they pretty much make up a class in the Addington class action litigation. That same Addington class that received both a jury verdict and subsequently had a permanent injunction issue on its behalf. Unless there is a Miracle in December the court system will have determined that West had standing and enforcible rights under the Nicolau award and that USAPA failed in its duty of fair representation to enforce those rights.

Of course there is always the expected argument that USAPA expected to lose to that out-of-touch west coast Court of Appeals and will press its argument to the SCOTUS.............

 

[cleardirect]

wasn't he referring to dues?

No. Look closely. I said that this quote came from the heading USAPA. He was talking about seniority.

 

[ClueByFour]

Not to bore the readers with your recent reply (#102), I won’t counterpoint your whole post, Clue. Your replies wasn’t on point anyway.

To summarize: "I have nothing, so I'll try to pivot"

You are the USAPA plant, right?

To summarize, more seasoned board-friend, this latest NIC depo revelation has you lashing out at me. I just delivered the message. Now your freaked over what Nicolau might have said. You should be more freaked what he might learn. That goes with being freaked that all the facts will eventually come out before the Ninth rules and before you get NIC implemented. The truth coming out about the Kirby is bad enough. Obvious why. With the legal process grinding too slowly for you, your bird in the hand might fly away. So you think by the shear will and power of your board posts here and elsewhere, we’ll just quietly submit. Dream on.

You are simply pissing your dues away. If you search, I pointed this out before Bradford birthed your union. Anyone with a decent education and not having their head firmly in the sand saw it coming.

Your money, but do those of us without any skin in the game a favor: don't try to drop propaganda here and not have it questioned.

What happens in the Ninth or LOA84 will happen regardless of what anger you post. Your not going to stop either.

That's absolutely right. You will be right where I'd predicted you would be (with NIC, and probably without LOA84), only millions poorer.

We’ve been kicked before. Nothing surprises us.

Please. Some large percentage of the East pilot population actually thinks it can duck Nicolau by abusing it's majority. Listen to me carefully, as it echos what I've been saying here since the idea first surfaced: Not. Going. To. Happen.

Oh, and as an FO, you will be tossed under the bus by the East captain population. It's just a matter of when.