US Pilots Labor Thread Aug 27-Sep 3 KEEP ON TOPIC

[UtterlyUdder]

I am sure the guy creating the attrition would rather make his wife happy instead of the F/O he may fly with one time.

I am one of those wives and I truly do resent what you've written here! :angry: Do you think wives don't understand what is important to a pilot? I suppose you are like those who organized a "family tree" years ago, ostensibly to make communication with families easier when in actuality it was a STRIKE COMMITTEE. Those of us wives who were there....all with over 30 years seniority being married to a USAir pilot, saw right through that one too.

I know that several wives read this forum. After all, it is open to the public....<----sometimes what I read here makes my skin crawl because it is public.. :blink: ...and wives have a vested interest in what is written here too.

Now go to your room!

 

[cubfan]

Mr Barrister/Dude,

You forget the other way this could go...bankruptcy!!! In bankruptcy our pal Al H pulls out his famous letter and slaps your sweet contract on us west pilots.....bingo one contract! Then we all get NEUTERED :huh:

The NIC is it....lets move on.

East,
If bk is in the cards, new contract, or old, loa93 or worse will be attempted by Mr. H

 

[Megasnoop]

If USAPA loses again in SFO, there will be a push to the BPR's to move on and present a joint contract. If the strategy is to delay-delay-delay until the East attrtition is realized and captured, then you truly are burning dollars that will never be recovered, even when the attrition kicks in.

With a loss at both the 9th and the LOA84 pay rates? Who knows. It still takes labor/mgt to agree to something to vote on. If the Kirby was still on the table and they wanted a contract, they wouldn’t be arguing about costing models. Truth is, the more we look at the Kirby the closest it comes to no pay raise at all. Vacations isn’t the only thing. Under Kirby, no SAP. You can’t permanent bid block/2ndary. Permanent bids are equipment, position (C/O, F/O) only. Number of blocks are guesses, fluxuating. No more seasonal bid swaps. If your at the bottom of block or 2ndary, under PBS you can end up holding reserve if blocks/2ndary lines are reduced. The PBS doesn’t honor strict seniority, so you could have seniority to hold a bottom block or bottom 2ndary and end up on reserve. It’s that bad. That’s what our NAC is faced with going to PBS. Don’t believe me. Ask the NAC. Devistating to commuters.

Just how long will the senior captains getting ready to retire going to wait to help the F/O’s? When USAPA loses the appeal and the snap back that 601 should be fairly easy to get.

Since you have so few over 60, you totally underestimate the shift in attitude by our 60+ers. First, right now, theyr’e are no C/Os over 60 “getting ready to retire.†That’s 2-3 years away. Add $800,000 pay and benefits and you get a new solidarity group none of us expected. Those 58+ers sitting on the fence 2 years ago, put us over the top in last years vote. Found money. If age 65 hadn’t passed, ALPA might have survived with NIC and a cram-down.

Better be careful. Those 200 pilots might want a raise before they leave. Or at least a few more days of vacation and better schedules before they go.

The Kirby is a minimum raise at best, especially using your PBS, according to ALPA stats to our old NC, it would need 5% less east pilots. If signed tomorrow, no current east 60+er would ever see 31 days vacation. But if he did, it would be at 3hr/day, not current west book of 3:40. Why no comment on that? Clear? Schedules better? With less crew members? Maybe for some. I don’t care if you don’t believe me. Those are the facts right out of the Kirby. Thanks ALPA!

 

[fr8tmastr]

. "But it is not your attrition anymore. It is system seniority attrition, and if you are junior, and I suspect you are, you will still capture all your coveted attrition, but you will not leapfrog those senior to you."



And there you have it, and its priceless. Nic is really not about saving the coveted West positions now is it? It is all about capturing the "new found" attrition on the East side, something the West did not bring to the merger.

 

[aquagreen73s]

The point is that you give me NO CREDIT for my active years here and I think that is wrong.

And the entire blame for that goes to your Merger Committee, whose strings were being pulled by the East MEC. The result you complain of is exactly the risk inherent in the "all or nothing" strategy in negotiations. The arbitrator told you guys to come back with something other than DOH. You didn't, and this is the result. Yet you blame everyone else but those truly responsible for you not getting any credit for active service. Why? It's not ALPA's fault, the West's fault, or the arbitrator and the neutrals. The system worked exactly as it was designed to. Operator error is operator error.

 

[aquagreen73s]

It is all about capturing the "new found" attrition on the East side, something the West did not bring to the merger.

See the post above. If the East wanted to protect attrition, then pehaps the "all or nothing" DOH strategy should have been shelved.

Spilled milk, now.

 

[nic4us]

No I had 10 active years upon recall in sept 07. I could of come back well before that. I passed as long as possible but took the last recall. I was starting and running another business that I continue to do. The point is that you give me NO CREDIT for my active years here and I think that is wrong. and No we didn't ask for all of it ... we talked about relative sen. But NIC put us behind new hires when it's my belief that if it would of been a little more reasonable we wouldn't be where we are today... But we are so why don't you guys lay off telling us what we are doing is wrong, when we feel in our hearts that it is right. I say our attrition because the vast majority of the attrition was the East's. we had close to 300 retirments before the change to 65. Those numbers will kick in within 2 years. Those retirments of the EAST pilots will make all the difference.

Honestly I'm ok living with NIC and staying separate just to capture our attrition.. and living wtih LOA 93

Hope that helps you!

If you were recalled to group II and displaced to the 190, I hope the second business helps with the income.

Honestly, for the time being I can live with seperte ops, as the TA keeps fleet mins. However, over time seperate ops will become unworkable as the company pits us against one another, keeping us from ganging up on them. Seperate ops may not favor the east in the future, as much as it has to date. Regardless of the attrition.

 

[cleardirect]

With a loss at both the 9th and the LOA84 pay rates? Who knows. It still takes labor/mgt to agree to something to vote on. If the Kirby was still on the table and they wanted a contract, they wouldn’t be arguing about costing models. Truth is, the more we look at the Kirby the closest it comes to no pay raise at all. Vacations isn’t the only thing. Under Kirby, no SAP. You can’t permanent bid block/2ndary. Permanent bids are equipment, position (C/O, F/O) only. Number of blocks are guesses, fluxuating. No more seasonal bid swaps. If your at the bottom of block or 2ndary, under PBS you can end up holding reserve if blocks/2ndary lines are reduced. The PBS doesn’t honor strict seniority, so you could have seniority to hold a bottom block or bottom 2ndary and end up on reserve. It’s that bad. That’s what our NAC is faced with going to PBS. Don’t believe me. Ask the NAC. Devistating to commuters.



Since you have so few over 60, you totally underestimate the shift in attitude by our 60+ers. First, right now, theyr’e are no C/Os over 60 “getting ready to retire.†That’s 2-3 years away. Add $800,000 pay and benefits and you get a new solidarity group none of us expected. Those 58+ers sitting on the fence 2 years ago, put us over the top in last years vote. Found money. If age 65 hadn’t passed, ALPA might have survived with NIC and a cram-down.



The Kirby is a minimum raise at best, especially using your PBS, according to ALPA stats to our old NC, it would need 5% less east pilots. If signed tomorrow, no current east 60+er would ever see 31 days vacation. But if he did, it would be at 3hr/day, not current west book of 3:40. Why no comment on that? Clear? Schedules better? With less crew members? Maybe for some. I don’t care if you don’t believe me. Those are the facts right out of the Kirby. Thanks ALPA!

The east has completely failed to understand PBS. As usual the NAC does not know what they are talking about.

As far as seasonal bids and all of that. I will admit I don’t know much about it. But if I understand it the way I think. All of that excessive training is going to stop. It is expensive and unproductive to have a large percentage of pilots continually in training.

The Kirby proposal is a 20-25% raise for the east. How it is not is beyond me. Please explain how your 60+’s will never see 31 days of vacation.

Again I think all of this is failure to understand the facts. On purpose or by accident.

 

[nic4us]

. "But it is not your attrition anymore. It is system seniority attrition, and if you are junior, and I suspect you are, you will still capture all your coveted attrition, but you will not leapfrog those senior to you."



And there you have it, and its priceless. Nic is really not about saving the coveted West positions now is it? It is all about capturing the "new found" attrition on the East side, something the West did not bring to the merger.

I happened to notice that the east did not demand to capture the current furloughs, something else the West did not bring to the merger.

flyer63 had a legitimate concern that his/her LOS was not given proper credit. Your pilot nuetral had the same concern about the Nic, as it applied to those already recalled when seniority negotiations concluded. However, the reason for the final placement is given in the decision, it is logical and well thought out.

I find it absurd that after the fact, you somehow want to remove a peice of the formula and say this part here, this attrition we have, is no longer negotiable, after negotiations have ended and a decision reached. It is not a status quo you seek. You want the attrition, and the benefits of the merger. You still want to gain at the West expense.

And by the way, the formation of usapa was not an attempt to save some attrition, it is and was a wholesale attempt at stealing from the West what you did not have prior to the merger.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Again I think all of this is failure to understand the facts. On purpose or by accident.

We do understand the facts. All of them. We really do. Your post brings nothing at all new to light for us.

What you seem to be missing (but, I doubt that you really are missing it) is that one fact overrides all the others by a large margin at this time, and we all know what that is. And the deeper that "fact" gets set into the concrete, the less likely any of us will alter our working conditions for years, possibly a decade.

It's just that simple. Some things are worth fighting for, standing one's ground and sacrificing financial gain. We are doing exactly that with eyes wide open. Not by accident at all. On purpose.

 

[Megasnoop]

Then pointing out he was deposed has no value whatsoever. Absent propaganda. I suspect it's because the transcript probably has all kinds of interesting nuggets in it that USAPA really does not want it's members (much less the public and/or a judge) to actually see.

Deposition transcripts don’t often get released before the case goes to trial, since objections have to be ruled on by the judge in court. Check with the hp on that. So your not worthy to know what Nicolau swore to. USAPA couldn’t release them anyway. Their MDA property. Mike Haber hit up ALPA for large DFRs before. It looks like he may do it again. One unintended consequence, with the questions Nicolau probably had to answer, even if theyr’e not allowed in trial, Nic will know he was dealing with a bogus list, and he’s still got jurisdiction. Get a clue. USAPA had nothing to do with the MDA depositions or release. MDA started before the NIC arbitration. Nice try at connecting the 2, but it doesn’t work. Before another complaint about USAPA stalling, ALPA’s dragged the MDA DFR out four years so far and we’re just now getting around to depositions.

If he was being truthful and understands that he must now "buy" a joint contract, it should cost him the Kirby proposal plus the amount that was stated in court to nudge it over the edge (approximately an additional 7-8% wage plus a kicker in the 401K), or perhaps just a bit North of that.

That kicker wasn’t on the table, it was barely a what-if. Kirby wasn’t on the table until after the NIC “award†anyway

BTW that would translate to $40-60K per year for the first 30% of east crew (at least) plus maximum vacation of 31 days a year(!!), and other contract improvements.

What happened to $30-40? It’s the same old tired argument. Maximum 31 days vacation? After reducing vacation credit from 3:40/day to 3/day? Not knowing from one month to the next if your on reserve or holding a block? 21 to 31 days vacation phased in over 4 years? One thing I notice about you guys. You ignore the actual numbers right out of the Kirby.

The tease isnt on the table anyway. If parker wanted a joint contract, we’d at least be agreeing on the costing models. How many job loss with PBS on the East side? ALPA was saying 170. How many recalls avoided with no vacation parity? ALPA was saying 180-250. Those aren’t USAPA numbers. I don’t care if you don’t believe me. Those are the facts. Thanks ALPA! The yearly $30-60K pay raise hook isn’t getting any east bites, except by the ALPA-phyles who want back on the gravy train. For them, it’s a $50-70K raise under Kirby with LOA95, which costs the company nothing.

The east has completely failed to understand PBS. As usual the NAC does not know what they are talking about.

We've been dodging PBS since the late 90s. We know it's a job killer. Info backed up by your experts back during ALPA JNC days at the table. Your same experts are saying the same thing now. What we don't understand is how you allow a system that doesnt follow strick seniority in bidding.

As far as seasonal bids and all of that. I will admit I don’t know much about it. But if I understand it the way I think. All of that excessive training is going to stop. It is expensive and unproductive to have a large percentage of pilots continually in training.

Stop it how? Excess pilots on one equipment sit around and don't work in the winter? That's expensive and unproductive. The training events is less expensive for the company than having excess on one piece and shortage on another. Forcing a commuting block holder to sit reserve, when he can bid blocks on another piece of equpiment or seat is a violation of something you don't understand: seniority.

The Kirby proposal is a 20-25% raise for the east. How it is not is beyond me. Please explain how your 60+’s will never see 31 days of vacation. Again I think all of this is failure to understand the facts. On purpose or by accident.

Kirby is 18% increase on average. Its not 20-25% because the Kirby did not increase 190 pay above the TA rates. Hourly rate less than LOA84 . It could be 400+ new furloughs/no recalls due to PBS and4-year phase-in of vacations from 21 days to 31 days. Kirby eliminated all the TA a/c floors. Pass it and you'd have furloughs, possible more with equipment reduction. With NIC, its more East furloughs/downgrades. Again, ALPA's numbers. We got all their studies. Or don't you trust them? Yes, most over 60 will never see 31 days with the Kirby phase-in. Reduction of vacation credits from 3:40 to 3. Your are the one not understanding the facts. The 18% tease was a company financial wash with all the smoke, mirrors and furloughs.

 

[hp_fa]

Deposition transcripts don’t often get released before the case goes to trial, since objections have to be ruled on by the judge in court. Check with the hp on that.

That is generally true. The one part that I will clarify is that the objections to the record do not need to be resolved before a transcript is released, ** if ** it is released. The objections do need to be resolved before a jury may hear deposition transcripts, or excerpts, during a trial. But depo transcripts normally are not made public outside of court except, of course, to the parties.

 

[Barrister]

WOW. This is one of those posts that will go down as that with the total smell of desperation.

You had better hope that Mr. Parker was being untruthful when he said he needed a joint contract. If he was being truthful and understands that he must now "buy" a joint contract, it should cost him the Kirby proposal plus the amount that was stated in court to nudge it over the edge (approximately an additional 7-8% wage plus a kicker in the 401K), or perhaps just a bit North of that. BTW that would translate to $40-60K per year for the first 30% of east crew (at least) plus maximum vacation of 31 days a year(!!), and other contract improvements.

With that on the table you should perhaps count on a joint contract......but, I could be wrong. <_<

I'm holding my breath.......NOT

 

[Barrister]

This association masquerading as organized labor will not be able to table a tenative agreement as long as it keeps discriminating against those it is legally required to represent. However, once a TA is reached, vote as you see fit. But it is not your attrition anymore. It is system seniority attrition, and if you are junior, and I suspect you are, you will still capture all your coveted attrition, but you will not leapfrog those senior to you.

Were you furloughed at the time of the merger, and are you employed now? By your 20yr 12 active statement am I to conclude that you were hired in '89 and at the time of the merger you were furloughed, and had 8 active yrs in 16?

Excuse me but did you actually use the word SENIORITY.....what a riot......and as for your analysis......

NOT EVEN CLOSE.....that's what I have been trying to tell ya.....it ain't the pissed F/O club only.

VNIIMN

 

[luvthe9]

NOT EVEN CLOSE.....that's what I have been trying to tell ya.....it ain't the pissed F/O club only.

VNIIMN

If they don't know that by now they never will.