US Pilots Labor Thread Aug 27-Sep 3 KEEP ON TOPIC

[Barrister]

So Seham can pad his resume and bill by trying to go to the supreme court. It may be his last chance or last client.

Dudes,

Just remember, IT STILL HAS TO GO TO A VOTE. When is it going to sink in that the vast majority of the East pilots got MURDERED by NIC. 90% will say NO to a short term pay gain if it means a 5-15 year loss of seniority.
When is it going to sink in with the West that USAPA is doing exactly what 90% of their MEMBERS want. If 1600 guys voted for equal dist. on the 35M and they vote the same way for a joint contract that contains NIC the West is NEUTERED........THAT'S RIGHT.....NEUTERED. Boy that sucks for the West....but it does suck for all of US. We totally get the fact that FOR NOW you have the upper hand in the legal arena......but we have measured the NIC against any possible contract enhancements and IT AINT THERE AND NEVER WILL BE.
I have said it once and will say it again.....EVERY PILOT in the East knows that in 2, 2 1/2 years 200 East guys a year are out the door and movement will come. We don't care about the West attrition....keep it .....knock youself out. ...but you Westies will be pissed when the retirements kick in and you ain't partaking.......COUNT ON IT


VNIIMN

 

[flyer63]

Barrister. Well said.. I agree 100 % as I wrote before.... 20 years here. 12 active it's our friggin attrition....
It will be the day I die before I vote for any contract that gives that away in anyway.

 

[700UW]

They should have looked at Seham before they hired him, he lost a major status quo case for AMFA against ACA, he represented AMFA and was a major adviser to them and you saw what NW did to them.

He represented Alitalia and EL AL against the IAM in lockouts.

USAPA gets what they deserve for shopping for answers instead of facing the reality of the law

 

[cactusboy53]

Dudes,

Just remember, IT STILL HAS TO GO TO A VOTE. When is it going to sink in that the vast majority of the East pilots got MURDERED by NIC. 90% will say NO to a short term pay gain if it means a 5-15 year loss of seniority.
When is it going to sink in with the West that USAPA is doing exactly what 90% of their MEMBERS want. If 1600 guys voted for equal dist. on the 35M and they vote the same way for a joint contract that contains NIC the West is NEUTERED........THAT'S RIGHT.....NEUTERED. Boy that sucks for the West....but it does suck for all of US. We totally get the fact that FOR NOW you have the upper hand in the legal arena......but we have measured the NIC against any possible contract enhancements and IT AINT THERE AND NEVER WILL BE.
I have said it once and will say it again.....EVERY PILOT in the East knows that in 2, 2 1/2 years 200 East guys a year are out the door and movement will come. We don't care about the West attrition....keep it .....knock yourself out. ...but you Westies will be pissed when the retirements kick in and you ain't partaking.......COUNT ON IT


VNIIMN

WOW. This is one of those posts that will go down as that with the total smell of desperation.

You had better hope that Mr. Parker was being untruthful when he said he needed a joint contract. If he was being truthful and understands that he must now "buy" a joint contract, it should cost him the Kirby proposal plus the amount that was stated in court to nudge it over the edge (approximately an additional 7-8% wage plus a kicker in the 401K), or perhaps just a bit North of that. BTW that would translate to $40-60K per year for the first 30% of east crew (at least) plus maximum vacation of 31 days a year(!!), and other contract improvements.

With that on the table you should perhaps count on a joint contract......but, I could be wrong. <_<

 

[cleardirect]

Dudes,

Just remember, IT STILL HAS TO GO TO A VOTE. When is it going to sink in that the vast majority of the East pilots got MURDERED by NIC. 90% will say NO to a short term pay gain if it means a 5-15 year loss of seniority.
When is it going to sink in with the West that USAPA is doing exactly what 90% of their MEMBERS want. If 1600 guys voted for equal dist. on the 35M and they vote the same way for a joint contract that contains NIC the West is NEUTERED........THAT'S RIGHT.....NEUTERED. Boy that sucks for the West....but it does suck for all of US. We totally get the fact that FOR NOW you have the upper hand in the legal arena......but we have measured the NIC against any possible contract enhancements and IT AINT THERE AND NEVER WILL BE.
I have said it once and will say it again.....EVERY PILOT in the East knows that in 2, 2 1/2 years 200 East guys a year are out the door and movement will come. We don't care about the West attrition....keep it .....knock youself out. ...but you Westies will be pissed when the retirements kick in and you ain't partaking.......COUNT ON IT


VNIIMN

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We have heard it all before. I don't put much stock in an unscientific poll from a biased source.

I prefer to have usapa do the job they are legally required to do. Present a contract to the pilots. Let us vote and see the actual results. Someone telling me 90% will vote no has no meaning.

Let's put it to a vote. It it fails 90-10% we have an idea. If it fails 51-49% Same results different path. A 51%-49 pass is a different result all together. There should be no problem allowing a vote to see the actual results is there?

If the east is so confident that it will fail by 90%. Then no worry right.

 

[Eastisleast]

Mr Barrister/Dude,

You forget the other way this could go...bankruptcy!!! In bankruptcy our pal Al H pulls out his famous letter and slaps your sweet contract on us west pilots.....bingo one contract! Then we all get NEUTERED :huh:

The NIC is it....lets move on.

 

[N924PS]

When is it going to sink in with the West that USAPA is doing exactly what 90% of their MEMBERS want.

You mean 90% of the EAST members.

According to the USAPA homepage, it represents 5200 pilots. USAPA is not doing what 90% of the entire memberships wants.

If USAPA loses again in SFO, there will be a push to the BPR's to move on and present a joint contract. If the strategy is to delay-delay-delay until the East attrtition is realized and captured, then you truly are burning dollars that will never be recovered, even when the attrition kicks in.

By the way, does anyone know how many West pilots have complied with Section 29 and can now cast a vote?

 

[cleardirect]

Dudes,

Just remember, IT STILL HAS TO GO TO A VOTE. When is it going to sink in that the vast majority of the East pilots got MURDERED by NIC. 90% will say NO to a short term pay gain if it means a 5-15 year loss of seniority.
When is it going to sink in with the West that USAPA is doing exactly what 90% of their MEMBERS want. If 1600 guys voted for equal dist. on the 35M and they vote the same way for a joint contract that contains NIC the West is NEUTERED........THAT'S RIGHT.....NEUTERED. Boy that sucks for the West....but it does suck for all of US. We totally get the fact that FOR NOW you have the upper hand in the legal arena......but we have measured the NIC against any possible contract enhancements and IT AINT THERE AND NEVER WILL BE.
I have said it once and will say it again.....EVERY PILOT in the East knows that in 2, 2 1/2 years 200 East guys a year are out the door and movement will come. We don't care about the West attrition....keep it .....knock youself out. ...but you Westies will be pissed when the retirements kick in and you ain't partaking.......COUNT ON IT


VNIIMN

I think a little simple math is in order.

USAPA says they represent 5200 pilots. The last election results listed 2812 as eligible voters. That is only 52% of the pilots are migs. Not a good record. About the same as 16 months ago. Not making real progress are they.

Next the west has about 1700 pilot on property. That means that of that 5200 pilots subtracting the current west members, about 200. That leaves almost 900 east pilots that have not joined USAPA.

So taking the results of the last vote. Only 1600 voted for method A. Consider those same voters would vote no for a contract. No where near the 90% number that has been floated. 1600 of 5200 is only 30%. Even if all 200 west migs voted method B. That means that another 300 EAST pilots voted against the BPR.

The east has reached equilibrium. Not a lot of new members. So the east migs will remain about 2600. Soon the west will increase our migs. From 200 to over 1000, upwards of 1400.

Add our 1400 to the east voters. Neutered becomes an overdramatic word.

We might approach 4000 migs. 90% would be no votes of 3600. Still thank that number is valid? With 4000 migs it is 2001 to pass a contract. If USAPA can manage to negotiate a good contract. (That remains in doubt) With 1400 west migs we only need 601 east pilot to pass a contract. That is only about 20% of the east pilots need to vote with their head not emotion.

Just how long will the senior captains getting ready to retire going to wait to help the F/O’s?

When USAPA loses the appeal and the snap back that 601 should be fairly easy to get.

EVERY PILOT in the East knows that in 2, 2 1/2 years 200 East guys a year are out the door and movement will come.

Better be careful. Those 200 pilots might want a raise before they leave. Or at least a few more days of vacation and better schedules before they go. You know guys going out the door don't have to work with junior or answer any awkward questions. They are free to vote in their best interest. Not the guy sitting next to them. I am sure the guy creating the attrition would rather make his wife happy instead of the F/O he may fly with one time.

 

[ClueByFour]

You are not worthy

Then pointing out he was deposed has no value whatsoever. Absent propaganda.

I suspect it's because the transcript probably has all kinds of interesting nuggets in it that USAPA really does not want it's members (much less the public and/or a judge) to actually see.

Dudes,

Just remember, IT STILL HAS TO GO TO A VOTE. When is it going to sink in that the vast majority of the East pilots got MURDERED by NIC. 90% will say NO to a short term pay gain if it means a 5-15 year loss of seniority.

Oddly enough, that could have happened under ALPA without pissing what will probably be 2-3 million dollars in your dues away to Seeham.

What's the joke about separating a fool from his money, again?

I wonder if Cleary or the BPR play chess, preferably with money on the line... My neighbor's 12 year old is always on the lookout for extra cash.....

 

[nic4us]

Barrister. Well said.. I agree 100 % as I wrote before.... 20 years here. 12 active it's our friggin attrition....
It will be the day I die before I vote for any contract that gives that away in anyway.

This association masquerading as organized labor will not be able to table a tenative agreement as long as it keeps discriminating against those it is legally required to represent. However, once a TA is reached, vote as you see fit. But it is not your attrition anymore. It is system seniority attrition, and if you are junior, and I suspect you are, you will still capture all your coveted attrition, but you will not leapfrog those senior to you.

Were you furloughed at the time of the merger, and are you employed now? By your 20yr 12 active statement am I to conclude that you were hired in '89 and at the time of the merger you were furloughed, and had 8 active yrs in 16?

 

[Beancounter]

Dudes,

Just remember, IT STILL HAS TO GO TO A VOTE. When is it going to sink in that the vast majority of the East pilots got MURDERED by NIC. 90% will say NO to a short term pay gain if it means a 5-15 year loss of seniority.
When is it going to sink in with the West that USAPA is doing exactly what 90% of their MEMBERS want. If 1600 guys voted for equal dist. on the 35M and they vote the same way for a joint contract that contains NIC the West is NEUTERED........THAT'S RIGHT.....NEUTERED. Boy that sucks for the West....but it does suck for all of US. We totally get the fact that FOR NOW you have the upper hand in the legal arena......but we have measured the NIC against any possible contract enhancements and IT AINT THERE AND NEVER WILL BE.
I have said it once and will say it again.....EVERY PILOT in the East knows that in 2, 2 1/2 years 200 East guys a year are out the door and movement will come. We don't care about the West attrition....keep it .....knock youself out. ...but you Westies will be pissed when the retirements kick in and you ain't partaking.......COUNT ON IT


VNIIMN

So what you are saying is that you want to stay under your current contract for an indefinite period. That is your choice to make. I'm sure you already understand that there won't be pay equality let alone a new contract without activating the NIC. I don't see the company offering a decent contract until the recession ends and by then the cost of fuel may be going up. It would be unfortunate if you guys are stuck under your current contact for several more years. I'm not being sarcastic, I know you guys have already been through a lot.

 

[des nudo]

I am sure the guy creating the attrition would rather make his wife happy instead of the F/O he may fly with one time.

You west guys are certainly "sure" of a lot on things. How can you possibly suggest you know anything about this?

I'll fix it for you: " I hope the guy creating the attrition..."

There, much more realistic.

 

[traderjake]

A USAPA hardliner giving advice on certainty and realism, now that's funny.

 

[flyer63]

This association masquerading as organized labor will not be able to table a tenative agreement as long as it keeps discriminating against those it is legally required to represent. However, once a TA is reached, vote as you see fit. But it is not your attrition anymore. It is system seniority attrition, and if you are junior, and I suspect you are, you will still capture all your coveted attrition, but you will not leapfrog those senior to you.

Were you furloughed at the time of the merger, and are you employed now? By your 20yr 12 active statement am I to conclude that you were hired in '89 and at the time of the merger you were furloughed, and had 8 active yrs in 16?
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No I had 10 active years upon recall in sept 07. I could of come back well before that. I passed as long as possible but took the last recall. I was starting and running another business that I continue to do. The point is that you give me NO CREDIT for my active years here and I think that is wrong. and No we didn't ask for all of it ... we talked about relative sen. But NIC put us behind new hires when it's my belief that if it would of been a little more reasonable we wouldn't be where we are today... But we are so why don't you guys lay off telling us what we are doing is wrong, when we feel in our hearts that it is right. I say our attrition because the vast majority of the attrition was the East's. we had close to 300 retirments before the change to 65. Those numbers will kick in within 2 years. Those retirments of the EAST pilots will make all the difference.

Honestly I'm ok living with NIC and staying separate just to capture our attrition.. and living wtih LOA 93

Hope that helps you!

 

[cleardirect]

You west guys are certainly "sure" of a lot on things. How can you possibly suggest you know anything about this?

I'll fix it for you: " I hope the guy creating the attrition..."

There, much more realistic.

That sure is putting a lot of faith in a retiring guy liking and protecting some guy the captain does not know, over a retiring guys family.

Given the nature of the human I think my statement is more accurate.

It is the east pilots that need to "Hope" the guy creating the attrition votes against his and his families best interest.