US Pilots' Labor Thread 6/24-6/30 Stay On Topic

[GuntherA320]

Gunther,

The West understands your resolve pretty well. Perhaps you are correct in that it will take 10 years, but I feel you are reading this remedy for what you want to see in it and not for what is in it.

First, this is an affirmation that Seham and USAPA are wrong. 10 months or 10 years does not change the fact that the east voted in a new union in the hopes of doing something they could not legally do, and now they will have to "defend" the very thing they set out to reneg. I would imagine that to include during any future merger negotiations.

Second, the remedy says, "shall immediately", I would love to be at the next negotiating session to see USAPA concede the Nic as their sect 22 and witness the company's reply.

Third, you are baseing your willingness to remain on LOA93 through a vision of the status quo. The only constant is change, and big changes are in store for us. We have a damages trial starting in just over a month, we have the company seeking more VLAs, we have new routes and new destinations being added and some subtracted. All these changes will be impacted by USAPAs liability of DFR and the guaranteeing of the Nic.

nic,

You obviously didn't see the East pilot bid for October that came out today. Things are changing......for the better on the east. The VLA's on the east are for 100 flight attendants......and if you noticed the VLA's are only for 3 months. From what I read in the new October Bid that we recieved today, we will be adding new positions (IRO's) due to new A330's arriving. With some retirements kicking back in after December I would be willing to bet that recalls will begin on the East next spring. I don't know anyone over here that expected an out right DOH win. Did we hope? Sure we did. But our worst case senario is playing out and most pilots over here can live with that. Seperate ops until a new contract is voted in. I honestly believe we should put west reps in charge of contract negotiations. It will wash our hands of any so called "stalling". Get a TA....put it out for a vote......I think you will be disappointed over and over again. It will be a long time before this pilot group is put together.

 

[nic4us]

name='USA320Pilot' date='Jun 25 2009, 10:07 PM' post='692956']
Great, we incorporate the Nic into the next CBA with 15 year fences, and furloughs by LOS. Sounds great to me, doesn't affect anyone from their expectations, unless of course you're a Westie trying to take advantage of the East Attrition.

Implement the Nic "according to its terms" not yours.

 

[nic4us]

nic,

You obviously didn't see the East pilot bid for October that came out today. Things are changing......for the better on the east. The VLA's on the east are for 100 flight attendants......and if you noticed the VLA's are only for 3 months. From what I read in the new October Bid that we recieved today, we will be adding new positions (IRO's) due to new A330's arriving. With some retirements kicking back in after December I would be willing to bet that recalls will begin on the East next spring. I don't know anyone over here that expected an out right DOH win. Did we hope? Sure we did. But our worst case senario is playing out and most pilots over here can live with that. Seperate ops until a new contract is voted in. I honestly believe we should put west reps in charge of contract negotiations. It will wash our hands of any so called "stalling". Get a TA....put it out for a vote......I think you will be disappointed over and over again. It will be a long time before this pilot group is put together.

I sincerely hope you are correct and that recalls begin by spring or sooner, I would hope by the holidays.

I agree, West reps should be at the bargaining table but not alone (need east and west there), for the reason you state and that West may have better insight to some of the implications of what the company wants in a contract, and why they want it.

 

[East Hole]

Traderjake the truth is that the original US Airways is the future of this company and not the west. HP brought almost nothing to this merger and believe it or not the worst management in the industry.

 

[Megasnoop]

Oh I would say 2 million worth of dues payable to a union liable for failure of DFR for starters.

Then I would add a stack of legal bills, and top it off with Punitive damages if the BPR so much as hints of a stalling tactic.

Looks like you need to challenge the Supreme Court ruling on germane/non-germane union expenses, Ellis Vs Railway Clerks. Wake wont go there. Also, (your) legal bills aren't damages. Attorney’s Fees NOT Recoverable As Compensatory Damages, except in certain contingency fee contracts, then only as a perpentage of the award. They should have been addressed in remedy anyway. Dues never came up in trial or in the initial counts. Good luck on that one. Punitive? Give us all a break, nic4. Do you really think USAPA is going to stall? And even if we did, its NOT punitive damages. At best we'd be hit with contempt citation/fine that goes to the court, not you. There got to be compensatory damages in order to have punitive damages. Youve got none. Counts 1/2 are gone thanks to your rocket scientist who knew about AOL counts 1/2 and then filed his own losing grevances. Show us a single DFR case where punitive damages were given in a DFR.

West reps should be at the bargaining table but not alone (need east and west there), for the reason you state and that West may have better insight to some of the implications of what the company wants in a contract, and why they want it.

We trust our negotiators and dont have BPRs or officers at the negotiating. We've been at this a little longer than you. You really think that we could trust your BPRs not to screw up negotiations with premature leaks? Not the way they've behaved up to now.

 

[BoeingBoy]

You obviously didn't see the East pilot bid for October that came out today. Things are changing......for the better on the east.

For the people that get one of the new 330 slots (30 capt and 30 fo), it's good as long as it's a move up. If you're one of those who lose their 75/76 slot, maybe not so good.

Retirements shouldn't really kick in for another 2-1/2 years, when those who weren't 60 when the retirement age changed start reaching 65. On this bid there is a net of 1 fo early retirement for the 4 months covered since the last bid and since it's early retirement that can be rescinded at any time before he/she actually retires. The last bid had 1 fo retiring early. The bid before that - 3. The net loss of pilots to disability is greater than to retirement - 3, 7, and 2 respectively on the same bids.

Jim

 

[exB717Flyer]

Damages? What damages?

That will be determined in court. Are you 'supremely confident' there won't be any damages?

How much $$ did both sides spend on this?

A lot. Such a waste. Don't you wish you'd just followed the law to begin with?

How much do you owe your attorneys?

Zero. You don't still think this will all end with our side running out of money, do you?

 

[westcoastflyer]

No one over here wants to live with LOA 93. However....when given a choice between LOA 93 and combined ops.....90% of east pilots will vote for continued seperate ops and LOA 93. You guys have seriously underestimated the East pilots resolve on this matter. 700....i haven't forgotten about section 6....what you don't realize is that the judge won't allow one side or the other to go section 6. If what you're saying is that after the East side contract is ammendable that the company can implement LOA 93 on both sides and implement the NIC....well....maybe you're right....but I don't see that happening. But then again...I could be wrong. Then it will be 2 years......both sides will share the pain......and the company would be in utter chaos with both sides revolting. This place would implode.

You are dreaming if you think that 90% of the East pilots (especially most of the captains) truly want to continue forever under LOA 93, if offered a considerably better contract. How long should every pilot and his/her family suffer, just to delay the inevitable court-ordered seniority integration for a short period of time? A much improved contract is possible for all pilots; it's definitely going to be time to move.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Wonder why this part of Ellis never gets quoted...

Section 2, Eleventh does not authorize charging objecting employees for the union's general organizing efforts, or for expenses of litigation that is not incident to negotiating and administering the contract or to settling grievances and disputes arising in the bargaining unit.

It doesn't seem that defending against a DFR claim, which was not part of the fact base of Ellis, is "incident to negotiating and administering the contract".

Snoop, remember early in this debate over Nic when I brought up the DFR suit that arose from the Air Wisconsin/Mississippi Valley merger? You claimed that it didn't apply because one lone difference existed between that case and this - the Air Wisconsin pilots weren't successful in ousting ALPA. Yet you completely ignore the different fact base of other suits in attempt to make them apply here.

Jim

 

[GuntherA320]

For the people that get one of the new 330 slots (30 capt and 30 fo), it's good as long as it's a move up. If you're one of those who lose their 75/76 slot, maybe not so good.

Retirements shouldn't really kick in for another 2-1/2 years, when those who weren't 60 when the retirement age changed start reaching 65. On this bid there is a net of 1 fo early retirement for the 4 months covered since the last bid and since it's early retirement that can be rescinded at any time before he/she actually retires. The last bid had 1 fo retiring early. The bid before that - 3. The net loss of pilots to disability is greater than to retirement - 3, 7, and 2 respectively on the same bids.

Jim

Jim,

You are absolutely correct about current retirement rates. Those numbers will change after December. It won't be a full out flood of retirements, however you will see more and more early retirements and many more out due to disability and death once they start to turn 62. Do we have some that will work till 65? Yes. Will most? I think the answer is no.

Overall reduction of 757/767 positions and increase in A330 positions are almost equal. Are you suggesting that those that get displaced to the A330 won't like their pay increase? There is a total net increase of 31 postitions on the new bid. 170 reductions and 201 vacancies.

 

[HPearlyretiree]

Traderjake the truth is that the original US Airways is the future of this company and not the west. HP brought almost nothing to this merger and believe it or not the worst management in the industry.

What did America West bring to the merger? Well, without them, you'd be the lumber guy at Home Depot right now.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Overall reduction of 757/767 positions and increase in A330 positions are almost equal. Are you suggesting that those that get displaced to the A330 won't like their pay increase? There is a total net increase of 31 postitions on the new bid. 170 reductions and 201 vacancies.

As for retirements, time will tell. I don't claim to have a crystal ball, but I have a hard time believing that pilots will start retiring in mass at 62. Could be wrong though.

There is an increase of 30 330 captain slots, about 70% of them reserve. The net loss of 75/76 capt slots is 51 - 90% of them blockholder. So 21 75/76 capts will get pushed down. I guess "almost equal" is in the eye of the beholder, but I doubt it matters to the pilot that can't get one of those 330 slots or hold his 75/76 job.

Jim

 

[GuntherA320]

You are dreaming if you think that 90% of the East pilots (especially most of the captains) truly want to continue forever under LOA 93, if offered a considerably better contract. How long should every pilot and his/her family suffer, just to delay the inevitable court-ordered seniority integration for a short period of time? A much improved contract is possible for all pilots; it's definitely going to be time to move.

Tell you what.......lets get a TA.......even if your side negotiates one for us it will take 2 years......If NIC is in it.....which is now court ordered (subject to appeal)......it will be a landslide NO vote. I wouldn't count on a raise anytime soon.

 

[GuntherA320]

As for retirements, time will tell. I don't claim to have a crystal ball, but I have a hard time believing that pilots will start retiring in mass at 62. Could be wrong though.

There is an increase of 30 330 captain slots, about 70% of them reserve. The net loss of 75/76 capt slots is 51 - 90% of them blockholder. So 21 75/76 capts will get pushed down. I guess "almost equal" is in the eye of the beholder, but I doubt it matters to the pilot that can't get one of those 330 slots or hold his 75/76 job.

Jim

Jim,

You are right.....there are 21 767 captains that will lose out on this bid. But I recieved some information that you did not. The last line of it says, "It is anticipated that future bids will add additional 330 positions, IRO lines for CLT 76I and that all PHL and CLT 76 flying will be international (with domestic flying being done by the 76I division). " But you can't always have all the information Jim. On a side note, how many of those senior (some already over age 60) 757/767 captain will say "to hell with this place"? How many of them want to go back to training to learn a completely foreign (no pun intended) airplane? How many will say, "Screw this...I'm not commuting to PHL"? I expect this bid to cause a very large training float. One thing is for sure.....things are changing around here.

 

[ableoneable]

Tell you what.......lets get a TA.......even if your side negotiates one for us it will take 2 years......If NIC is in it.....which is now court ordered (subject to appeal)......it will be a landslide NO vote. I wouldn't count on a raise anytime soon.

I don't think your timeline is far off. USAPA appears to be well behind where ALPA left off negotiations. They don't seem to understand either west's scheduling section or the scheduling sections already tabled.

Even if they were negotiating in earnest I don't think they would be able to deliver a favorable TA.

Ironically it may be west pilots who vote no in large numbers because the east will likely fund pay increases by watering down west work rules and benefits.

The fact that the judge's order both mirrors the TA and is simple reduces the chances it will be overturned on appeal from low to extremely low. Though I was loath to make a prediction on the outcome of the Addington trial, I don't feel I am going very far out on a limb in predicting that USAPA's appeal is going to die a quick and certain death.

The potential no vote on the east side depends upon how long the east pilots are willing to forgo pay increases and scheduling enhancements to prolong a battle already irrevocably lost.

I am sure that there are some east pilots who have decided that it's over and who have moved on. The question is how many. It is more likely than not, that time will drive more pilots in this direction.