US Pilots' Labor Thread 6/24-6/30 Stay On Topic

[Tiger 1050]

Please cut out the USAPA Traitor in big red letters, it's very inflammatory. How does that constitute a personal attack, as per the moderator's warning?

Like Metro said, I am just displaying USAPA's label they have assigned to people like me. Amazing really. This "union" is so reminiscent of Nazi Germany. Hmmmm.

 

[UtterlyUdder]

Please cut out the USAPA Traitor in big red letters, it's very inflammatory. How does that constitute a personal attack, as per the moderator's warning?

Thank you for that. I agree with you about the inflammatory nature of those big red letters. Anyone who has read the posts on here with any kind of regularity can see who the flame throwers are and that includes the ex ALPA people. They are very disgruntled and it shows.

I am a part of the public who reads this forum and as such, I find those big red letters as well as the personal attacks atrocious. Richard has often stated about the lack of professional behavior by some posters who seem to think they can actually predict the future. I echo those sentiments as well as yours. Thanks again.

 

[Tiger 1050]

Thank you for that. I agree with you about the inflammatory nature of those big red letters. Anyone who has read the posts on here with any kind of regularity can see who the flame throwers are and that includes the ex ALPA people. They are very disgruntled and it shows.

I am a part of the public who reads this forum and as such, I find those big red letters as well as the personal attacks atrocious. Richard has often stated about the lack of professional behavior by some posters who seem to think they can actually predict the future. I echo those sentiments as well as yours. Thanks again.

Interestingly enough you failed to voice opposition to the CLT domicile update that labeled those of us who oppose USAPA's current agenda. Want to know what label they used? Yep! You need look no further than my signature...

 

[Megasnoop]

Just couldn't wait for that slam, could ya? Well, you should have thought this one through as you're missing what Marcio is saying by a country mile

All I can say is Im glad I was flying the past 24 hours and had my computer off. It took about 30 seconds to pass through all the attacks/counter-attacks. Those who spoke up are correct. Theyre ruining the discussion and way off topic.

The real art of conversation is not only to say
the right thing at the right time, but also to leave
unsaid the wrong thing at the tempting moment. Anon

Concerning Marcio and meetings, whatever his language, after just 4 months appointment as LAS BPR, hes not running in the current election. No one insulted or even commented on Marcio's English writing skills but you. For some reason you thought you had to mention it. We all know it is an FAR/ATP requirement to be able read, understand and converse in the English language. Writing is not required.

Concerning no USAPA meetings being held in LAS. With only 17 members in good standing, what's the point? PHX is now down to less than 100 MIGS. USAPA hasn't been holding a bunch of meetings at our other small bases either, LGA/BOS. But let me ask (only asking because I already know the answer), has either PHX BPR Rep asked the current USAPA leadership to have an informational meeting in PHX? No, theyd rather just complain. With all the outrageous comments from your PHX BPRs (which USAPA continues to let them put out), why would USAPA be in any hurry to hold a PHX informational meeting? It is funny how mild-mannered Brice can be at a BPR meeting and how over-the-top he is in his rants to the PHX membership.

Bradford is flying the line, not hiding. His term expired in April. So, whats your point?

 

[aquagreen73s]

No one insulted or even commented on Marcio's English writing skills but you. For some reason you thought you had to mention it. We all know it is an FAR/ATP requirement to be able read, understand and converse in the English language. Writing is not required.

Marcio's language wasn't airtight and it left a little opening for what he was saying to be miscontrued, which is exactly what your fellow East pilot capitalized upon. Marcio's word choice was actually pretty good, it just wasn't to the requisite level needed to prevent the misconstruction which is a standard practice by your fellow USAPa diehards.

Concerning no USAPA meetings being held in LAS. With only 17 members in good standing, what's the point? PHX is now down to less than 100 MIGS.

The point is that USAPa is supposed to represent all pilots. If membership is unusually low in a certain geographic region, then logic would dictate that the leadership should be investigating why that is the case. Logic would also dictate that an onsite meet and greet is a great way to start and see how a change in direction should proceed. The fact of the matter is that the only thing USAPa has done since the jury verdict is to pump up the spin machine, twist facts, and try to obfuscate what is really happening. DOH is dead. They (USAPa) needs to get over it and move on, but burying their collective heads in the sand is the wrong thing to be doing. 24 months running since the birth of USAPa and there's only one meet and greet on record. *IF* that same brain trust were intelligent, then the first order of business would have been to sit down and to listen to the segment of pilots they were just found guilty of not fairly representing.

Bradford is flying the line, not hiding. His term expired in April. So, whats your point?

He was nowhere to be seen at the trial is all, but he was pretty darn confident and vocal about his DOH concoction for the year and a half before that. Why the sudden change? And what was the problem with just taking the stand and speaking the truth? After all, he claims to have founded USAPa on principles of fairness good union governance, and if all of his actions were derived from those principles post formation, then what is there to hide?

Don't feel you need to answer that question as we all know the answer. Marty Harper would have torn Bradford to shreds on cross examination and whatever glimmer of hope there might have been for a hung jury would have then evaporated. So, the answer for USAPa was to keep him off of the stand.

 

[Megasnoop]

The point is that USAPa is supposed to represent all pilots. If membership is unusually low in a certain geographic region, then logic would dictate that the leadership should be investigating why that is the case. Logic would also dictate that an onsite meet and greet is a great way to start and see how a change in direction should proceed.

I think we logically already know why membership is so low in PHX. MIGS dropped after Addington below 100, so you lost a BPR vote. No need for a fact-finding mission there. Right now its a 14-3 vote to continue the current direction. We're letting this play out. The longer it takes, the angrier you guys get.

Im not going to reply to your rehash of the same tired old themes. In fact, I dont think either side should continue in that way.

Don't feel you need to answer that question as we all know the answer. Marty Harper would have torn Bradford to shreds on cross examination and whatever glimmer of hope there might have been for a hung jury would have then evaporated. So, the answer for USAPa was to keep him off of the stand.

The answer we know is there are a lot of unresolved issues before (if ever) you see NIC in a single contract. If Harper is so good, maybe he'll convince the judge that ALPA had a super-secret plan in place and the discovery will resume. We'll get all ALPAs super secrets. You guys might even get damages from ALPA. After losing Counts 1 & 2, you sure not going to get any damages out of USAPA. Tie in ALPA and youve got the perverbial deep pocket.

COMMENT DELETED BY MODERATOR

 

[ussnark]

I think we logically already know why membership is so low in PHX.

The only thing I have "faulted" USAPA on is the dues issue, they should have sent out demand letters quite a while ago. ALPA certainly would have.

I know there are issues about germane expenses, etc., but many on the west have gotten a free ride for quite a while.

 

[nic4us]

The longer it takes, the angrier you guys get.

The longer it takes the more pressure that builds in the lopsided fencing of seperate ops. On the Nic, how many West F/Os does the junior east narrowbody captain have above them? I am guessing but since we displaced around 100 captains , I would say that number is between 150-200. I could be way of base, and could figure it out myself if I knew the name of the junior east 737 and A320 captains.

Looks like you get to go to HNL. Enjoy the layovers.

 

[hp_fa]

Don't feel you need to answer that question as we all know the answer. Marty Harper would have torn Bradford to shreds on cross examination and whatever glimmer of hope there might have been for a hung jury would have then evaporated. So, the answer for USAPa was to keep him off of the stand.

And that is exactly the reason I question why go through the appeal? While I know in advance that a number of USAPA folks will correctly chime in that it is USAPA's right to appeal, the real question is what is accomplished if the best case scenario is another trial in Phoenix and this time service of process on Bradford will be done correctly, compelling his testimony. Based on what I have seen and read I cannot see anything good coming out of that from USAPA's perspective.

 

[exB717Flyer]

Based on what I have seen and read I cannot see anything good coming out of that from USAPA's perspective.

Their perspective is clear: delay, delay, delay. Every day the Nicolau list isn't in effect is a victory for them. Remember how after Gulf War I Saddam Hussein declared 'victory'? The East is very similar, all the way down to having their own Baghdad Bob comm guy. What eventually happened to the Saddam regime?

 

[Megasnoop]

The longer it takes the more pressure that builds in the lopsided fencing of seperate ops. On the Nic, how many West F/Os does the junior east narrowbody captain have above them? I am guessing but since we displaced around 100 captains , I would say that number is between 150-200. I could be way of base, and could figure it out myself if I knew the name of the junior east 737 and A320 captains.

And when recall and attrition starts, we'll get those east C/O slots.

Looks like you get to go to HNL. Enjoy the layovers.

I'm sure we will. Aloha!
East Permanent Bid 09-04
Re-open CLT 76I base to support CLT-GIG and CLT- HNL
Increase PHL 330 lines and reserves in support of fleet growth
Decrease CLT 76D lines
Decrease PHL 76I lines of flying
Decrease DCA 733 lines and increase CLT lines due to routing changes
It is anticipated that future bids will add additional 330 positions and IRO lines for CLT 76I and that all PHL and CLT 76 flying will be international (with domestic flying being done by the 76I division).

 

[Megasnoop]

And that is exactly the reason I question why go through the appeal? While I know in advance that a number of USAPA folks will correctly chime in that it is USAPA's right to appeal, the real question is what is accomplished if the best case scenario is another trial in Phoenix and this time service of process on Bradford will be done correctly, compelling his testimony. Based on what I have seen and read I cannot see anything good coming out of that from USAPA's perspective.

hp-fa, a lot depends on an appeals court ruling and wording, doesn't it? Worse case for us, we win appeal on ripeness alone. Ok, another round of depositions, pre-trial motions, more $$. For us it all comes out of dues/MX fee $$. For the West, another round of fund raising, AFTER they pay off their attorneys for this round. And (see below), no damages. Best case, we win on issues such as jury instructions, other reversible error, which you know will change the entire complexion of the case. And a retrial on our best case wont be knocked out in a week. One thing sure, if its retried on our grounds, Bradfords testimony wont be as damaging as what we'll get admitted. The whole story will come out. If Harper has some ALPA smoking gun, that will come out too. Based on what the 9th Circuit rules, Wake might not even be around for Addington II. Dont tell me theres no precedence for that. 3rd circuit removed a judge on a retrial just last fall. No, I wont do your homework for you.

Meanwhile, this just in (latest USAPA update). There go the damages.

By letter dated June 19, 2009, from Addington attorney Kelly J. Flood to Arbitrator Richard I. Bloch, the Addington plaintiffs have withdrawn the grievance incorporating Counts One and Two. The plaintiffs have withdrawn this grievance despite their stated belief that the Company breached its agreements with the West pilots by "operating in such a way as to take economic advantage of the terms of the US Airways CBA ... to the detriment of the West pilots."

I didnt reply to your reply on last weeks thread, because the chat got too toxic over the past 24 hours, but I'll try now. I also had to check with my favorite NYC lawyer on one point.


QUOTE (Megasnoop @ Jun 24 2009, 10:26 AM)
My take, the remedy will be USAPA forced to negotiate using Section 22-NIC. We cannot drag our feet or negotiate in bad faith (like demanding $500/hr and 120 days vacation a year). We have to keep the judge informed whats going on. Maybe even be monitored by some pest of AOLs choosing.

See, we can agree!!! I'm not as sure about the monitoring, but I fully agree with the first two sentences.

I believe the permanent injunction should be fully appealable once issued. What do you think?

Monitoring wouldn't be an oppressive burden. And it most likely would have to be paid for by the plaintiff. Any permanent injunction would part of the appeal, but still in place during the appeal.

Their perspective is clear: delay, delay, delay. Every day the Nicolau list isn't in effect is a victory for them. Remember how after Gulf War I Saddam Hussein declared 'victory'? The East is very similar, all the way down to having their own Baghdad Bob comm guy. What eventually happened to the Saddam regime?

Flyer, we're getting plenty of delay from the company alone to resort to any delay tactics, which the judge wont allow. But delay? How did we delay this trial? Filing to verdict in less than 8 months in Federal Court no less? That's a delay? Ultimately it will the rank and file voting that determine if and when NIC ever sees the inside cover of a single contract. So I guess USAPA is nothing other than the will of its membership.

After Gulf War I Saddam did declare victory. Eventually, he lost his head. 15 years later! After Gulf War II, Bush declared "Mission Accomplished." That was 6 years ago?

Just in from BOS:

BOSTON DOMICILE UPDATE
June 25, 2009

THE RINK HAS CLOSED

While attending the latest BPR meeting, Jess and I heard a presentation by the Secretary/Treasurer regarding the Section 29 process. As you may know, there is a major ramp-up in this area with the issuance of 50 collection letters a week. So, for all you skaters out there, it's time to put ‘em away and get out the checkbook. The union has been more than patient, and final notices are now accelerating. If you contact us, we will work with you. Everyone has already had plenty of notice. Although not our desire, it is not unlikely that a termination may actually occur … termination for cause. Don’t let it be you. There is no gaming the system as in the previous CBA. It’s all letters and phone calls. No jetway visits. Your employment will simply cease to exist. Stop skating and join us.

 

[nic4us]

And when recall and attrition starts, we'll get those east C/O slots.



I'm sure we will. Aloha!
East Permanent Bid 09-04
Re-open CLT 76I base to support CLT-GIG and CLT- HNL
Increase PHL 330 lines and reserves in support of fleet growth
Decrease CLT 76D lines
Decrease PHL 76I lines of flying
Decrease DCA 733 lines and increase CLT lines due to routing changes
It is anticipated that future bids will add additional 330 positions and IRO lines for CLT 76I and that all PHL and CLT 76 flying will be international (with domestic flying being done by the 76I division).

When recalls start it brings up an interesting twist. The TA reciprocates the hiring from the furlough pool prior to off the street, but the question becomes who gets recalled first if the east needs pilots while West still has furloughs? I would think if recall happens on the east prior to the West, the pecking order for those east slots would be, former east , former West, then third list. What say you?

Did notice something else you may be interested in. Went looking to try and answere my own question about who was the most junior groupII captain on the east, and I think I found it but was unable to correlate that to how many West F/Os are senior to that pilot. What I also found was a LOA93 pay table. On this pay table it has scales thru the year 2011 inclusive. So my question is, does the LOA93 pay structure extend thru the year 2011, a full 2 years past the claimed expiration? Because if you have a pay table with rates thru 2011, you are not going to convince anyone that those written rates were published but would never apply.

 

[hp_fa]

Wake might not even be around for Addington II. Dont tell me theres no precedence for that. 3rd circuit removed a judge on a retrial just last fall. No, I wont do your homework for you.

How many judges in how many cases to get one kicked? I don't believe that I ever said there was no precedent but I fully stand by my remarks that Wake will not be booted from this case.

 

[A320 Driver]

When recalls start it brings up an interesting twist. The TA reciprocates the hiring from the furlough pool prior to off the street, but the question becomes who gets recalled first if the east needs pilots while West still has furloughs? I would think if recall happens on the east prior to the West, the pecking order for those east slots would be, former east , former West, then third list. What say you?

Did notice something else you may be interested in. Went looking to try and answere my own question about who was the most junior groupII captain on the east, and I think I found it but was unable to correlate that to how many West F/Os are senior to that pilot. What I also found was a LOA93 pay table. On this pay table it has scales thru the year 2011 inclusive. So my question is, does the LOA93 pay structure extend thru the year 2011, a full 2 years past the claimed expiration? Because if you have a pay table with rates thru 2011, you are not going to convince anyone that those written rates were published but would never apply.

Could I have the page # with that pay scale in it. I just looked thru LOA 93 twice and I didn't see it.

Thanks

Driver B)