US Pilots Labor Thread 6/2-6/9 STAY ON TOPIC

[N924PS]

"non-flying job", except he stays current, checks, landings and physical.
"expense account", so, he should pay expenses out of his own pocket?
"maximum flight pay loss". As in, um, what are you talking about? Is there, by extension, a minimum flight pay loss? Is he getting paid some way other than what is in the constitution? Please explain.

Please ask your beloved union President how much flight pay loss he is being paid. I'm sure you will find he is not receiving 70 hours of pay as he advocates his fellow pilots to do.

While your at it, please obtain a detailed accounting of how much of USAPA's dues money has gone to Seham and Co. Break out the monies spent on litigating the Addington suit. I'm sure you feel your getting your money's worth. I don't.

 

[luvn737s]

Let's see. The Kirby proposal which US Airways has stated is all they can afford offers no raise to the E190 pilots. The union and rightfully so has and should continue to reject anything that does not fall somewhere between Alaska's new agreement and the DAL and LUV agreements. As new agreements like Jetblue come in and proably AA and CAL before a new CBA, the average needs to keep up. It's not just about accepting pay that would clearly be inferior for the next 5 years but the weak starting point that would damage pay for the 5 years after that and so on and so forth. Not to mention the East pilots will have a grievance go forward next year to return to LOA 84 pay which if won will rightfully raise the starting point for raises in a new CBA. If the industry and profession has a standard which is clearly being established, its up to any company in said industry to manage itself in a way to bear the cost that other companies who remain competitive do and not the continuing crisis of the employees to bear through concessionary agreements. I don't think there is any doubt that Alaska, DAL, CAL, Jetblue, AA, and LUV are out preforming and with much higher labor costs.

So USAPA acts as a willing accomplice with US management in lowering the wage bar and making gains for others that much more difficult, all in the name of preserving "seniority". And this gains USAPA respect among other pilot groups how??

Pinning hopes on possibly winning a grievance next year is like Wimpy promising to pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today. Except Wimpy probably gets his burger.

Cleary says "be a man and go hungry" with his mouth full.

 

[ROACLT]

So USAPA acts as a willing accomplice with US management in lowering the wage bar and making gains for others that much more difficult, all in the name of preserving "seniority". And this gains USAPA respect among other pilot groups how??

Pinning hopes on possibly winning a grievance next year is like Wimpy promising to pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today. Except Wimpy probably gets his burger.

Cleary says "be a man and go hungry" with his mouth full.

Grievance win or no, anything less than what is contained in the contracts that were established this year and AA and CAL which will likely be settled in the next should be rejected and if the process has to run out all the steps of the RLA, so be it.

The pay for EMB 190 is now $150 an hour when you figure JetBlue's premium pay and north of $180 dollars an hour for 737/A320 pay when looking at Alaska, DAL, LUV and that will continue to rise with CAL and AA. Thats just pay, when you figure DC plan contributions, work rules, vacation, scheduling and other comparisons a "lot" more is going to have to be put on the table. Anything less should be unacceptable to the pilot group, certainly to your peers. There is no excuse other than not standing up to management that is unable to manage costs as well as its competitors.

 

[nic4us]

African, or European swallow?

I don't know!..............AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[aquagreen73s]

The pay for EMB 190 is now $150 an hour when you figure JetBlue's premium pay and north of $180 dollars an hour for 737/A320 pay when looking at Alaska, DAL, LUV and that will continue to rise with CAL and AA. Thats just pay, when you figure DC plan contributions, work rules, vacation, scheduling and other comparisons a "lot" more is going to have to be put on the table.

What table are you talking about? Do you mean the table that the company won't sit down at for another two years until USAPA's fruitless appeal is denied? Then there'll be another year or so of negotiating which means we'll all be at the five year mark after the Nic Arb was published and the East shelved negotiations. We're now talking about the 2012 timeframe and the Kirby proposal would have been amendable anyway. What you also conveniently fail to mention is that we would have gotten more than just the Kirby proposal, but another 8% in pay and 15% in the 401Ks, not to mention greatly improved work rules for the East.

There is no excuse other than not standing up to management that is unable to manage costs as well as its competitors.

Great sound bite...why not send a message to your BPR telling them to knock off the fruitless appeals from USAPA's twin losses: RICO and now Addington. Perhaps then pilot resources can be channeled towards improving the livlihood of all US Airways pilots instead of making all of us (and especially the East) the anchors of the industry.

 

[Pi brat]

I don't know!..............AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Did you ride your bike to work, or pack your lunch?

 

[hp_fa]

For what good it will do, just to set the record straight ONE MORE TIME, Randy Mowrey WAS on the merger committee, from 1998 to 2000! He got canned by the MEC after the Shuttle debacle. He had nothing to do with the MEC, MC or anything in ALPA from the merger announcement going forward. I never heard his name mentioned as a USAPA operative. I dont think his ALPA roots would allow it.

Snoop, I am always willing to listen to and discuss facts, so thank you for continuing to educate, at least, me.

Mike and Tracy held no elected positions. They were involved in system board and grievances, period. With 17 other elected positions, they were hardly "leaders" in any sense of the word. They did outstanding grunt work for the MEC. Tracy still does grievances and a darn good job at it. Dave Ciabattoni was an elected Rep, REMOVED from office by Darth Prater. Ciabattoni was at odds with Jack Stephen from when he got elected in fall 2006. He was kept out of the loop. ALPA spent a fortune trying to stay on property. Stephen grovelled in emails, videos, meetings to save the mother ship. When ALPA was gone, his cushy, non-flying job and expense account went with it. The ALPA defeat turned him into a near non-entity. Conecting him with some kind of USAPA conspiracy is ludicrous. Nice try connecting dots that dont exist in any of this.

Ciabattoni and the PHL officers had a duty of loyalty to ALPA as elected reps. This is beyond dispute. Had they felt that they could no longer support ALPA and preferred USAPA they should have resigned immediately without any external pressure. Prater acted when he had no choice. Actually he should have acted earlier, but he postponed acting probably in the hope that those officers would resign on their own or fulfill their duty to ALPA. Had those elected officers resigned and stayed away from accepting positions within the USAPA leadership they would have not provided a clear path that indicates that it is a distinct possibility that the East ALPA and USAPA campaigns against Nicolau were not fully independent of one another because many of the same people were very active in leadership positions in both organizations.

These allegations as documented with the exhibits attached to the Plaintiffs' Response to the MSJ are sufficient to defeat the MSJ. The question really becomes what evidence will the plaintiffs present at the next trial because it is looking as if they have a compelling showing of improper actions being taken in opposition to the Nicolau award.

 

[sharonstoneseat]

Well, okay,

Okay, I like the much simpler Black Knight analogy.

If it is your favorite then enjoy.

However you have now read the play too and although you find it amusing/confusing, you read it.

The real analogy, the effect of the protracted conflict and the fate of Greece after the Peloponnesian War.

Gotta Fly now.

 

[aquagreen73s]

The real analogy, the effect of the protracted conflict and the fate of Greece after the Peloponnesian War.

??? Twenty years later Leonidas gave the Persians a heck of problem and although he techically lost, he set the stage for another Greek - Alexander. The world we see today was arguably shaped the most by the Greece that arose from the Peloponnesian Wars.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Which accomplishes what, exactly? The BPR has done nothing but thumb their nose at the membership and press on with impunity. They won't even abandon their ill-conceived attack on the Cactus 18 because they want to salvage their pride.

Did you ever think that the BPR is doing EXACTLY what their consituents ask them to do? Just because the west doesn't like it, doesn't mean they don't have membership support on the east.

Believe me, they do. And lots of it. They are mostly doing EXACTLY what I expect them to do. My differences with them so far have been very minor.

 

[nic4us]

Ciabattoni and the PHL officers had a duty of loyalty to ALPA as elected reps. This is beyond dispute. Had they felt that they could no longer support ALPA and preferred USAPA they should have resigned immediately without any external pressure. Prater acted when he had no choice. Actually he should have acted earlier, but he postponed acting probably in the hope that those officers would resign on their own or fulfill their duty to ALPA. Had those elected officers resigned and stayed away from accepting positions within the USAPA leadership they would have not provided a clear path that indicates that it is a distinct possibility that the East ALPA and USAPA campaigns against Nicolau were not fully independent of one another because many of the same people were very active in leadership positions in both organizations.

These allegations as documented with the exhibits attached to the Plaintiffs' Response to the MSJ are sufficient to defeat the MSJ. The question really becomes what evidence will the plaintiffs present at the next trial because it is looking as if they have a compelling showing of improper actions being taken in opposition to the Nicolau award.

My question is, would any laws be broken if a union rep used union resources to campaign against the union for which they have a duty of loyalty?

In other words. If an ALPA rep favored USAPA but did not want to resign and lose their pulpit, and actually campaigned for USAPA and/or against ALPA with ALPA resources, has any law been broken?

 

[luvn737s]

Did you ever think that the BPR is doing EXACTLY what their consituents ask them to do? Just because the west doesn't like it, doesn't mean they don't have membership support on the east.

Believe me, they do. And lots of it. They are mostly doing EXACTLY what I expect them to do. My differences with them so far have been very minor.

No. I have seen votes that mirror the original USAPA election, but I have yet to see any significant growth in USAPA membership beyond the original core hard-heads. Their performance has not won any new converts to their ill-conceived and poorly executed strategy. Any future growth in membership would be among those who look to oust the current leadership and replace it with one more focused on productivity for the entire membership and less on perpetuating the destructive civil war.

Eventually there will be a majority that demands that their leaders earn their FPL by delivering real economic improvements, not more rah-rah rhetoric.

 

[ussnark]

Ciabattoni and the PHL officers had a duty of loyalty to ALPA as elected reps.

Sorry to contradict.

Ciabattoni and, for that matter, anyone else, has a duty to the line pilots who elected them and no one else. Any rep uncomfortable with their "circumstances" has a constitutional duty to express their disquiet in any way they deem useful.

I am certain you did not mean so, but, the German army was entrained by Hitler using the same line of "reasoning". Appeals to "loyalty" over that of reason is unconscionable as well as evil, no qualifications.

Respect and loyalty are earned, not demanded. Ever.

 

[hp_fa]

My question is, would any laws be broken if a union rep used union resources to campaign against the union for which they have a duty of loyalty?

In other words. If an ALPA rep favored USAPA but did not want to resign and lose their pulpit, and actually campaigned for USAPA and/or against ALPA with ALPA resources, has any law been broken?

I am not sure if any criminal laws were conceivably been broken. I say that, in that manner, for a couple of reasons. One, I am not sure what criminal provisions are contained within labor law that could invoke criminal penalties for a breach of fiduciary duty and/or any other such breach. An aggressive prosecutor might allege RICO as an avenue to get to the criminal code. However, in reality, that prosecution isn't going to likely happen under this fact pattern because of the political reality that prosecutors spend more time going after folks who commit violent crimes as opposed to non-violent crimes. (**If** a crime has been committed.....)

The more likely road would be for a civil violation where if proof existed of what you suggest than ALPA could seek restitution for any actual damages it wrongfully incurred or otherwise expensed because of any alleged bad acts. However it does not appear that ALPA is interested in taking any further action than what it already took, specifically the trusteeship of Local 41.

However lets be clear here. I am not advocating such a course of action. However I am suggesting that USAPA does not have clean hands because of the taint of the folks who were ALPA leaders and have subsequently turned up as USAPA leaders. Also, as I have previously said, all the claims that ALPA was bad and USAPA is good have lost a lot of their luster because USAPA leadership consists of many of the same people and that in reality the disillusionment of many East folks against ALPA was not really against National ALPA, but rather their own elected folks. USAPA has previously played that disillusionment like a Stradivarius in large part because they never had to identify ALPA as being National or MEC (which means East's own folks), but simply lumped it all together. The problem is that USAPA now has elected or appointed many of the same folks and, consequently, has lost the ability to meaningfully claim any bully pulpit.

 

[traderjake]

Did you ever think that the BPR is doing EXACTLY what their consituents ask them to do?

They are mostly doing EXACTLY what I expect them to do.

They've done nothing but spend money on lawyers.

You may want to rethink your expectations. Like maybe a pay raise.