US Pilots' Labor Thread 6/18-6/23-Stay on Topic and Observe the Rules

[traderjake]

Mr. Colello also brought alot of attrition and wide bodies that he brought to the merger. Why should anyone out west get access to those.

Should the USAir and PSA pilots been fenced off the Piedmont 767s?

Everything changes with a merger.

 

[A320 Driver]

Should the USAir and PSA pilots been fenced off the Piedmont 767s?

Everything changes with a merger.

YES

 

[BoeingBoy]

Should the USAir and PSA pilots been fenced off the Piedmont 767s?

They were. As Kagel said:

B. Protected 767 Positions:

1. Former PA1 Pilots holding a B767 position on the date of the combined operation may not be bumped or displaced due to the merged list becoming effective. This condition shall remain in effect for the duration of the career of such pilot.

2. For a period of two years from the effective date of the combined operation, these B767 positions shall be reserved for former PA1 Pilots, and Pilots filling such vacancies shall be afforded the career protection of Paragraph B.1.

Sounds pretty ironclad, doesn't it. Yet by the end of the two years about 40% of those protected positions were not held by PI pilots.

Compare that language to the USAPA language protecting West pilots in PHX and LAS and you can see why the USAPA language is just as meaningless.

Jim

 

[cubfan]

Alot has been said about what will or won't happen. The judge will rule soon, and the picture may become a bit more clear. Then off to the 9th appeals court. After that I think the picture will be very clear. Absent automatic implimentation of the NIC, it will take a joint contract. Now, for me it would take HUGE quality of life enhancements. Since I feel with NIC, my life on rsv could last a long time, no rsv will be on duty more than the avg. line. All days off are guaranteed, if I elect to work a day off, payed at time+1/2. Min rsv pay 76hrs. Last day on duty, pass trip to jr. rsv with more than 1 day on duty. Long call min 12 hr call out. Short call 90 min, all rsv have no more than 3 days on short. (every one cycles thru short call for 24hrs.) Min. defined contribution 15%, top of scale vacation min days 30/yr, may be taken in one day increments payed at 4:30 min. No limit on sick day accural, payed out at hr. rate upon retirement. Early out packae for 200-300. 65% of pay for 3 yrs, medical to age 65.These are just a few items, do I think any would become reality, NO, so there is my vote, my vote really has nothing to do with NIC.

 

[ussnark]

Yet by the end of the two years about 40% of those protected positions were not held by PI pilots.

Compare that language to the USAPA language protecting West pilots in PHX and LAS and you can see why the USAPA language is just as meaningless.

First, thanks for setting TJ straight. I fear his lost ALPA job is clouding his viewpoint.

But, before you start asserting things that may or may not be, perhaps you might wish to explain about those "40% non-protected" positions?

1. How many (percentage-wise) came available due to retirement (all kinds)?

2. How many (percentage-wise) came available because the protected PI pilot did not wish to commute or placed work rules above salary (lots of red-eyes vs banker (airline management) hours)?

I worked with the most junior of the "protected group" (you know who he is) and we, among others, discussed the situation quite a bit. Perhaps you could add to that discussion?

Every merger has conditions and restrictions. Perhaps we can use the past to really protect those pilots with their pre-merger jobs, instead of just shooting from the hip about a future based on negotiating positions.

 

[ROACLT]

Alot has been said about what will or won't happen. The judge will rule soon, and the picture may become a bit more clear. Then off to the 9th appeals court. After that I think the picture will be very clear. Absent automatic implimentation of the NIC, it will take a joint contract. Now, for me it would take HUGE quality of life enhancements. Since I feel with NIC, my life on rsv could last a long time, no rsv will be on duty more than the avg. line. All days off are guaranteed, if I elect to work a day off, payed at time+1/2. Min rsv pay 76hrs. Last day on duty, pass trip to jr. rsv with more than 1 day on duty. Long call min 12 hr call out. Short call 90 min, all rsv have no more than 3 days on short. (every one cycles thru short call for 24hrs.) Min. defined contribution 15%, top of scale vacation min days 30/yr, may be taken in one day increments payed at 4:30 min. No limit on sick day accural, payed out at hr. rate upon retirement. Early out packae for 200-300. 65% of pay for 3 yrs, medical to age 65.These are just a few items, do I think any would become reality, NO, so there is my vote, my vote really has nothing to do with NIC.

Which is why Parker said there isn't enough money to buy the Nic to West pilots. Accepting a contract with the NIC raises the asking price of any contract to cover the things you said and more and with demographic of the East pilots, it is get it now or never, or no Nic contract.

 

[Megasnoop]

I am not sure what to make of this statement, please elaborate.

Because the way I see it Remedy=Obligation and Failure to comply=Jail.

We are talking about a judge, not a personal therapist.

Or better yet, if USAPA does not like the coming remedy, why not have Seham and Cleary tell the judge to his face that USAPA is not going to follow his "suggestion" because he has no legal authority to impose anything against a union. I would be willing to pay the dues USAPA thinks I owe to watch that level of entertainment. Wait just a second...it just dawned on me...that is what USAPA plans on doing....whooohooo....I get to watch this Stooges episode for free.

Once again, you make erroneous statements, pretend they are true. Then you wave the bloody shirt with exaggerations. To your displeasure, USAPA hasnt violated a sngle court order in the past and wont in the future. We'll use our legal rights to whatever means required, including our right to appeal, assuming Wake's remedy is even worth appealing. Negotiate with the company using the NIC? Thats easy enough. No contract will pass, not with 2 $35M checks coming in and LOA84 pay coming back. Dont (bad faith) drag our feet? Agreeing only to 2 days a month with a mediator, the company is taking care of that and the judge has removed the company from this, so any bad faith stalling has to come out of protests to the NMB. We'll get right on that. No, nic4, until LOA84 pay and the appeal is resolved, its going to be a long 12-18 months before there any chinks in our unity and resolve. Your not getting the truth about whats going on from AOL/AWAPPA. Not our problem and we're not going to feed it to you. We may quarrel internally, but look at the votes coming out of the BPR. We know who the 3 (now 2) BPR dissenters are.

When you have to resort to "stooges, whooohooo, entertainment, personal therapist" comments, we know you cant make a logical argument. Despite what you think your own importance is, your chats arent making any headway with our leadership or attorneys. This will be settled in court, not by a bunch of posters.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

This will be settled in court...

Isn't that where you typically come up short?

 

[BoeingBoy]

1. How many (percentage-wise) came available due to retirement (all kinds)?

Not relevant unless you can show me where Kagel's C&R's say something to the effect of "unless the position is vacated due to retirement" during the two years.

2. How many (percentage-wise) came available because the protected PI pilot did not wish to commute or placed work rules above salary (lots of red-eyes vs banker (airline management) hours)?

Not relevant unless you can quote the part of the Kagel C&R's that say something to the effect of "unless the position is vacated voluntarily" during the two years.

I worked with the most junior of the "protected group"

And I worked along side Davis (the US one) while he (with the RIDC folks help) interpreted away most of the Kagel C&R's. Oddly enough, it was only the Empire protections that came through unscathed.

Jim

 

[cleardirect]

Your not getting the truth about whats going on from AOL/AWAPPA. Not our problem and we're not going to feed it to you.

Most of us in the west read the court filings. So it matters not what Leonidas "tells" us. We know the accurate truth. So what is it that you think that usapa knows that we don't?

This will be settled in court, not by a bunch of posters.

How about you tell us which court is going to settle this? You agreed to let an arbitrator settle this. Disagreed with the result. Then it was a federal judge or jury. Disagreed with the result. Now we have to go to the appeals court to settle this. Will that be it? Could you tell us if the court of appeals is "the court"? Or is the court of appeals just another court until we get to the "REAL" court.

 

[A320 Driver]

Not relevant unless you can show me where Kagel's C&R's say something to the effect of "unless the position is vacated due to retirement" during the two years.



Not relevant unless you can quote the part of the Kagel C&R's that say something to the effect of "unless the position is vacated voluntarily" during the two years.



And I worked along side Davis (the US one) while he (with the RIDC folks help) interpreted away most of the Kagel C&R's. Oddly enough, it was only the Empire protections that came through unscathed.

Jim

Thanks for the post Jim. You were certainly in a position to know. Lots of dirty tricks played with the conditions and restrictions. Not much we could do about it but watch them fly away.

Driver B)

 

[BoeingBoy]

It was watching from the front row as that played out that made me a firm believer in the fewer C&R's the better. The ideal would be no C&R's but I doubt you'd ever find two airlines so alike as to make that possible.

Much better to start with a fair foundation, and I know that "fair" is in the eye of the beholder. Kagel tried to balance the inequities of DOH with a number of C&R's, none of which reached implementation unscathed and that was with each side having a MC to represent their interests (Kirsch was on the PI side - Davis could get him to agree to about anything).

Jim

 

[ussnark]

Not relevant unless you can show me where Kagel's C&R's say something to the effect of "unless the position is vacated due to retirement" during the two years.

I guess you hit on a weak spot, something that should be addressed should the pilots ever get to the point that C&Rs ever become a factor.

Davis is hardly to person to blame for any "re-interpretation", don't you think? I would think he would not been that effective during those years.

 

[Megasnoop]

QUOTE (Megasnoop @ Jun 22 2009, 09:52 AM)
This will be settled in court...

Isn't that where you typically come up short?

Generalizations are like assumptions, everyones got one.

Civil RICO still alive and well in NC State Court.

Breeger (Empire) tossed out by a FEDERAL Judge in NC Federal Court.

Counts 1&2 (the only real damages) remanded to arbitration by Wake, BOTH lost, one because your grandstanding heroes no-showed.

Addington, ouch, lost that one, but on appeal. Or maybe the "remedy" wont be worth time or money appealing.

Now your back in Wake's Court with your latest Hail Mary to drag ALPA into this. I'll get back to you after that one plays out.

All in all, Id say we're holding our own.

Did we ever ask for retirement attrition credit? Are you really going to complain about not getting something you never asked for?

Probably not, Dxx. Whatever happened, I (as a non-member, ALPA objector) can only say I told you so. Pure DOH was so off the wall. DOH was some restrictions and protections might have ruled, but the MEC was too afraid to explain that. Even your CLT LEC buddies went along with that.

The arbitrator told us point blank to come up with another proposal.

And the Merger Committee told the MEC that. The MEC just sat on it. The MECs arrogance can trace back to June 2005 when the MC put out an update saying DOH wasnt in the ALPA playbook. They were right but almost got tossed for the blasphemy. Any wonder ALPA got tossed?

 

[nic4us]

Once again, you make erroneous statements, pretend they are true. Then you wave the bloody shirt with exaggerations. To your displeasure, USAPA hasnt violated a sngle court order in the past and wont in the future. We'll use our legal rights to whatever means required, including our right to appeal, assuming Wake's remedy is even worth appealing.

When you have to resort to "stooges, whooohooo, entertainment, personal therapist" comments, we know you cant make a logical argument. Despite what you think your own importance is, your chats arent making any headway with our leadership or attorneys. This will be settled in court, not by a bunch of posters.

What statement did I make that was erroneous or untrue?

To my displeasure USAPA has violated its DFR and is actively doing me and the West harm. USAPA, with Seham's advice, has not correctly applied its "legal rights", it has distorted a union's normal protections in an attempt to steal from the West, to regain against what it percieves as past injustices.

How is this for a logical arguement?

I am an objector/challenger. Objectors hold little importance with USAPA. I hold little importance with USAPA.

or this

I am a West pilot. USAPA is stealing from West pilots. USAPA is stealing from me.