US Pilots' Labor Thread 6/18-6/23-Stay on Topic and Observe the Rules

[cactusboy53]

Mr. Colello also brought a lot of attrition and wide bodies that he brought to the merger. Why should anyone out west get access to those.

Oh, I get it :blink: ! What you are saying is that Mr. Colello is PERSONALLY RESPONSIBLE for those jobs created by attrition at the old US Air.

Well, by that logic the America West pilots are personally responsible for the saving US Air because America West Holdings acquired the old US Air in 2005 just prior to the company going bankrupt. As such the seniority list should allow the first AWA pilot to be #1. Right? Why should anyone out east get access to jobs that wouldn't have been there had it not been for the "merger"?

 

[exB717Flyer]

I know the years of service does not mean squat to you.

No, sir, it means a lot. It just doesn't mean as much as seniority does.

 

[Megasnoop]

There are many things proclaimed by USAPA which are way off the mark.

The DFR/LOA84 will play itself out over the next 12-18 months, but not on this chat. Your impatience and attention span obviously has trouble handling that timeline. You want it all now. The overwhelming majority of union members demand we play this out. Meanwhile, we’re looking at LOA84 rates in 2010. Language, intent, history, precedence, even ALPA on our side. Prater has a vested interest in this too. If by some fluke we lose, ALPA, which negotiated and co-wrote LOA93, will have major problems ever negotiating concession contracts in the future. Obviously you don’t want us to get LOA84 rates.

Take this board for example: We have a…

Your attacking persons, not issues. No chat creds for that. Your damages offense is falling apart. This is what AWAPPA/AOL hasn’t told you. Not even Wake bought off on counts 1 and 2. He sent them where they belonged, arbitration. Any damages you think you had went out the door with your own failures. We even tried to help you. Funny, no word about our help out of your propaganda machine updates.

CAUSES OF ACTION
COUNT ONE (DEFENDANT US AIRWAYS)
Case 2:08-cv-01633-NVW Document 86 Filed 11/28/2008 Page 18 of 24
Breach of CBA: Furlough Out Of Order
83. Plaintiffs re-allege each and every allegation set forth above as if fully
set forth herein.
(Lines 84-96 restate the losses, furlo timetable. I can post them, but they take up room)
97. One or more Plaintiffs, and other West Pilots similarly situated, will likely suffer a demotion and/or loss of wages, benefits and favorable working conditions because of the West Pilot furloughs planned by Defendant US Airways.

Wake sent that to arbitration. USAPA lost that one. Bummer. There goes damages on furlough out of order, Count 1.

COUNT TWO (DEFENDANT US AIRWAYS)
Breach of CBA): Failure To Negotiate In Good Faith

Judge Wake dismissed US Airways from this complaint and allowed you to make your case in arbitration. USAPA agreed to have this arbitration done with only the neutral voting. USAPA would not have a vote, which would remove any charge of futility/COI. Wake accepted this and removed counts one and two from the Federal docket and let them go to arbitration. 3 days prior to the count two hearing plaintiffs cancelled the arbitration. Arbitrator Bloch ruled that they must reschedule by June 19th or forfeit ever bringing the case again. Plaintiffs did not reschedule and missed the deadline. Counts 1 and 2 were the bulk of damages, if any. Now gone.

Now AOL has a super secret weapon. New “evidence†just uncovered. Hail Mary is to bring in ALPA. They claim that ALPA had a new contract ready to go in early 2008. The East MEC knew about it and was on board with presenting it. This happened months before Kirby’s May proposal. Too bad ALPA never told either NC or MEC. They want to subpoena ALPA 1st VP Paul Rice, Phil Comstock of Wilson Poll and no doubt other assorted ALPA VIPs. They think theyre going to find proof USAPA was in on the conspiracy. Thats a laugher.

Case 2:08-cv-01633-NVW Document 471 Filed 05/19/2009 Page 2 of 3

Additional findings relevant to liability and supported by largely uncontroverted evidence include that - (2) ALPA could have used a trustee to complete negotiation of a tentative single CBA incorporating the Nicolau Award and to present that tentative CBA for ratification

Indeed, in the interests of continuing to expedite the next phase of these proceedings, Plaintiffs seek leave to propound limited, focused subpoenas for documents on non-parties. Plaintiffs have a good faith basis to believe that evidence exists that will support their claims in the next phase, and that such evidence will be used to oppose USAPA’s impending motion for summary judgment. Plaintiffs did not learn about the evidence until late in the trial, notwithstanding the fact that USAPA was aware of relevant information and failed to disclose it.

Specifically, but not exclusively, Plaintiffs have learned of documents that likely directly contradict the testimony of one of USAPA’s key witnesses, Jack Stephen. Plaintiffs intend to direct subpoenas to ALPA and one of its vendors to produce documents that Plaintiffs believe will directly contradict the testimony of Mr. Stephen and other USAPA witnesses concerning what USAPA has referred to as an “impasse of indefinite duration.â€

Plaintiffs respectfully request that this Court allow them to propound their limited, focused discovery as soon as possible to allow them to continue to pursue their claims expeditiously.

Respectfully submitted this 19th day of May, 2009

POLSINELLI SHUGHART PC

ALPA could have put the East MEC into trusteeship and forced a contract without a vote, but they didn’t. What we post here you either don’t read or believe. Hard to tell where all this conspiracy nonsense is coming from. From Harper, wanting to get paid? From AOL not able to pay him? From AWAPPA still pulling the strings and demanding damages, because there sitting on donations? One thing sure, as secretive as ALPA is, if there really was such a conspiracy, theyre not going to let themselves get tied into this mess. They’ve got the deep pockets, not USAPA.

I don’t hold office and cant speak for the BPR, but under the old Arabian proverb “the enemy of my enemy is my friend,†if you think theres a case to be made that ALPA was manipulating behind the scenes, I bet we’d jump in there with you. Bad news is that statute of limitations against ALPA may already be gone. If so, that’s your bad. You guys were so hung up on USAPA, we missed the 800-lb gorilla. As I posted last fall, I never understood why you didn’t add ALPA just for grins. ALPA was the one that stopped negotiations and refused to put East MEC into trusteeship. ALPAs the one that ropa-doped on presenting the NIC and then didn’t follow through. But they were more concerned about losing the property. If thats not a duty to fair representation problem, then what is?

Lill, I’ll argue facts, motives, gottchas all day, but the putdowns, insults, Im not going there. Whats the point?

 

[luvn737s]

I know the years of service does not mean squat to you. The attrition we bring to the merger does not mean squat to you. The access to widebodies we brought to the merger will be blocked from 20+ year pilots from the east. I know this does not mean squat to you. You deserve it all. You worked hard for this!!!!

This is the crummy part of any merger. Nicolau tried to prepare you for what was the best solution (there are no painless solutions), but the east would have none of it. Lots of hard work on both sides has been flushed away due to the merger, but the east has made it worse by dragging their feet regarding implementing the arbitrated award. Instead of doing what was right, they tried to do what they thought they could get away with. The east felt entitled to "business as usual" and their superior numbers brought about a union which helped cement that inaccurate perspective. Now the large plateful of pride that must be swallowed in order to move forward has become practically indigestible, but that's not the fault of the west.

I think that the east's behavior should have lost them the right to have any vote if they are going to use it to perpetuate their delaying tactic.

 

[luvn737s]

I don’t hold office and cant speak for the BPR, but under the old Arabian proverb “the enemy of my enemy is my friend,â€￾ if you think theres a case to be made that ALPA was manipulating behind the scenes, I bet we’d jump in there with you. Bad news is that statute of limitations against ALPA may already be gone. If so, that’s your bad. You guys were so hung up on USAPA, we missed the 800-lb gorilla. As I posted last fall, I never understood why you didn’t add ALPA just for grins. ALPA was the one that stopped negotiations and refused to put East MEC into trusteeship. ALPAs the one that ropa-doped on presenting the NIC and then didn’t follow through. But they were more concerned about losing the property. If thats not a duty to fair representation problem, then what is?

Am I understanding you right: You hated the folks enough, who conspired to protect you, that you voted them out? That ALPA misplaced it's trust in the US East pilots and that if they ran cover for you, you wouldn't vote in USAPA? And are you saying that the deception that the east pilots pulled on ALPA could only have been thwarted by ALPA placing both MEC's in trusteeship and signing a contract (which probably wouldn't have contained Nic as a little payback for AAAMEC looking the other way while the AWA pilots were cuckholded?

And you thought the west pilots would line up to be part of a group like this?

So again it's all ALPA's fault (and to thank them the east pilots voted in USAPA).

Yeah, that's it. I bet it sounded better coming from Seham.

 

[A320 Driver]

Your answere is in the Nic Award. It explains exactly why there was a fence around the widebodies, and why east attrition does not mean squat in the larger context of what happened here.

East attitude has always been what is mine is mine and what is yours is negotiable. What you failed to realize is that what was yours was negotiable, and you failed to negotiate.

I'll say this again s-l-o-w-l-y.

T-h-e-r-e i-s n-o f-e-n-c-e a-r-o-u-n-d t-h-e w-i-d-e-b-o-d-i-e-s.

Nic gave the first 517 slots to East pilots. Those slots retire with them. Those slots do not slide down the list as the 517 retire. There are NO fences in NIC II. What little bit was there went away with the age 60 rule.

Bottom line is that NIC said East and their attrition had no value. That is still the predominant thinking based on posts over the last 24 hours. In short, we should be happy we have a job.

Thanks for saving me West guys. You were our ONLY hope.

Happy now?

Driver B)

 

[A320 Driver]

You need to go to the book rates and put the LOA 84 table of reductions and restitution on them. To get what the reps are telling you, ignore LOA 94 altogether. LOA 84 has been fully functional in the background all this time, even though we had 5 years in which LOA 93 overrode those pay rates. Once the LOA 93 cuts disappear, whatever would have been the pay rate had it not existed is what we end up with. And it's way more than a $10/hr raise for captains. If LOA 93 reduced rates by 18% and then disappears, just gtetting that 18% increase back is more than $10/hr. That math is pretty simple.

As far as not "looking like it expires," where are you looking? If you're looking on the Hub, you won't see it. The company has redacted that portion from the online file. (One wonders why they would do that, since I'm certain the union has an original copy with the information intact, and likely the contract is on file with the DOL anyway.)

Got all of it from the Loop. Used teh book rates from the contract (LOA 84 has no rates), applied the increases, then reduced it 18%. In LOA 93, the first line has the dates (beginning and ending) on the rates. Next line down has the part about the 18% cuts...no date on that.

Like I said, just one pilot's opinion.

Driver B)

 

[hp_fa]

Happy Father's Day to the fathers here.

 

[nic4us]

Yo nic4 keep your eye on the prize! The west had everything to gain from this merger and nothing to lose.

The MDA law suit will show that Collelo and friends were not furloughed and that somebody used a fraudulent list. Very deceitful! That is a problem for your precious Nic award. I would suspect that the MDA crowd is going to want full disclosure from the old bargainning agent.

Happy Fathers Day!

I will keep my eye on the prize, how about you take a look in the mirror.

Your arrogance is astounding, and illustrates my point exactly. East had every thing to gain and everything to lose absent this merger. Absent this merger, Colello would not be furloughed but unemployed, along with the MDA pilots, and the top 517.

It does not matter if the MDA pilots are considered furloughed or not. They were still not mainline, still had status and expectations below ODell, and that is why they were placed below Odell, and will remain there.

The widebody arguement has merit, and I would say that perhaps the Nic did not protect that flying well enough for the east.

However, here is why your attrition does not mean squat. Over 65% of it is junior to me, and does not effect my advancement significantly( I need to reap some of your attrition just to get back to my original relative seniority because Nic placed 517 of yours on top prior to the ratioed slotting), yet Colello and Odell benefit 100% from it. Colello has to share his attrition (which he brought) with Odell, and Odell shares what he brought (you can call it growth or solvency or whatever you like but it is the chance for everyone involved to benefit from the attrition in the first place).

What upsets the east so much is not that Odell will benefit from your attrition, being at the bottom he would get that anyway and it would not effect any east pilot whatsoever. What has your side so upset is that Nic4us does not benefit significantly from your attrition, Colello and company want my job, my status, my seniority. Sorry, you did not bring anything to the merger that would entitle you to my seniority and that includes east attrition.

 

[nic4us]

I'll say this again s-l-o-w-l-y.

T-h-e-r-e i-s n-o f-e-n-c-e a-r-o-u-n-d t-h-e w-i-d-e-b-o-d-i-e-s.

Nic gave the first 517 slots to East pilots. Those slots retire with them. Those slots do not slide down the list as the 517 retire. There are NO fences in NIC II. What little bit was there went away with the age 60 rule.

Bottom line is that NIC said East and their attrition had no value. That is still the predominant thinking based on posts over the last 24 hours. In short, we should be happy we have a job.

Thanks for saving me West guys. You were our ONLY hope.

Happy now?

Driver B)

Driver,

As I have said, perhaps Nic did not protect the widebodies well enough. Personally, I would not have cared if he put a perpetual fence around existing widebody until Colello had a chance to accept or decline. Frankly, that is how I would have done it, but I would have started slotting at number 1 on West is number 1, # 2 on West is #4 etc....

I agree and am happy to still have a job.

You are welcome for the save, and let me thank all the east pilots for giving me a career I could have never realized without you.

Happy fathers day

 

[weiral]

Hello,

I'm no longer involved in union activities, so I can finally stop being a lurker and say what I want to say. I know Dean Collelo. Dean is a friend of mine. But Dean is not a widebody even though he flies one.

I've read for months about all this alleged we'd be out of business. Truth, without this merger, we'd all be scrambling for jobs. In fact, Westies would be in worse shape than the east without the TA and merger. The West merger attorney admitted that. It's all in the depositions that Harper didn't want revealed. Damaging email. Maybe we'll get those posted down the road.

As someone very close to the MDA lawsuit, I can say we are winning. ALPA's got a real problem. The inaccurate list will be ALPA's undoing. It can spill over to the NIC Award as well. A bad list leading to a bad award. All MDA pilots were members of either PHL or CLT Locals. They paid dues to ALPA, received all PHL and CLT communications from ALPA, voted in meetings in PHL and CLT. They held key union committee positions there. In fact, one was our PHL LEC Sec/Tres. ALPA recognized them for what they were, ALPA members in good standing of their respective locals. No web board gossip is going to change the facts.

Signed, Weird Al

 

[Metroyet]

Hello,

I'm no longer involved in union activities, so I can finally stop being a lurker and say what I want to say. I know Dean Collelo. Dean is a friend of mine. But Dean is not a widebody even though he flies one.

I've read for months about all this alleged we'd be out of business. Truth, without this merger, we'd all be scrambling for jobs. In fact, Westies would be in worse shape than the east without the TA and merger. The West merger attorney admitted that. It's all in the depositions that Harper didn't want revealed. Damaging email. Maybe we'll get those posted down the road.

As someone very close to the MDA lawsuit, I can say we are winning. ALPA's got a real problem. The inaccurate list will be ALPA's undoing. It can spill over to the NIC Award as well. A bad list leading to a bad award. All MDA pilots were members of either PHL or CLT Locals. They paid dues to ALPA, received all PHL and CLT communications from ALPA, voted in meetings in PHL and CLT. They held key union committee positions there. In fact, one was our PHL LEC Sec/Tres. ALPA recognized them for what they were, ALPA members in good standing of their respective locals. No web board gossip is going to change the facts.

Signed, Weird Al

Good Luck finding the Boogeyman. Meanwhile, the reality train will keep on chugging along.

 

[A320 Driver]

Driver,

As I have said, perhaps Nic did not protect the widebodies well enough. Personally, I would not have cared if he put a perpetual fence around existing widebody until Colello had a chance to accept or decline. Frankly, that is how I would have done it, but I would have started slotting at number 1 on West is number 1, # 2 on West is #4 etc....

Yeah, I can see how you would like that. We should have been happy with a staple job. At least we would have a job at this progressive, forward thinking, employee oriented, money making, growing, first class airline.

I'm gonna go hurl now.

Driver B)

Oh yeah...Happy Fathers Day.

 

[luvthe9]

Meanwhile, the reality train will keep on chugging along.

At least you realize the the Nic ain't happening, that's all the reality you need!!!!

 

[Metroyet]

At least you realize the the Nic ain't happening, that's all the reality you need!!!!

Remeber that song put out by the band "The Black Crows" in the mid ninties entitled...

"REMEDY"?

I think i'll be playing that song a lot this next week. Also, i'll thank those lunatic hot heads that run CLT and their May 28 update every time I hear it.