US Pilots' Labor Thread 6/18-6/23-Stay on Topic and Observe the Rules

[BoeingBoy]

Oops - dupe post deleted by me.

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

Shucks, you think you found a scapegoat.

I don't believe I said anything about a "scapegoat" - that would be someone who is blamed but played no role. Davis definitely played a role.

Davis was good at his job, which was to represent the interests of the original US/PSA pilots. When viewed from that perspective his performance was to be admired. As I said once before, Davis was someone you wanted on the MC if the only criteria was getting the most for the pilots he represented without regard for the harm done to the other side. If you wanted something that both sides could live with, he wasn't your man.

Kirch wasn't so good - more interested in getting along than pushing for the interests of the PI pilots. The other PI MC position turned into a revolving door pretty quickly - no one was interested in doing it once they found that they lost most disagreements about interpretation.

Ironic that Kirch ended up on the East MC for this integration, forced to fight for an outcome he didn't believe was attainable.

Jim

 

[nycbusdriver]

Ironic that Kirch ended up on the East MC for this integration, forced to fight for an outcome he didn't believe was attainable.

And he was quite self-satisfied that he was able to get Nicolau as the arbitrator after surviving the alternate strike. He was purportedly delighted to be working with Nicolau because they "had established a good relationship with him during the Shuttle merger." (That's a paraphrase, but the quotes are reasonable since the sentiment is accurate.)

When I saw that we had Nicolau, I told anyone who would listen that this decision would mirror the Shuttle integration. And it did.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Of course the satisfaction with the choice of Nic was before the MC was backed into the DOH corner by the MEC and pilot group. There's absolutely no way to prove one way or the other, but I'm convinced if the East position had been some form of ratio with fences around the widebodies and attrition the whole seniority integration would be behind you now.

I wholeheartedly agree with your second statement and said as much all the way back to the ALPA forum - anyone that read Nic's previous pilot awards and still expected DOH was only setting themselves up for disappointment.

Jim

 

[nycbusdriver]

Of course the satisfaction with the choice of Nic was before the MC was backed into the DOH corner by the MEC and pilot group. There's absolutely no way to prove one way or the other, but I'm convinced if the East position had been some form of ratio with fences around the widebodies and attrition the whole seniority integration would be behind you now.

I wholeheartedly agree with your second statement and said as much all the way back to the ALPA forum - anyone that read Nic's previous pilot awards and still expected DOH was only setting themselves up for disappointment.

Jim

Wow, BB. We're on a roll. I think we've agreed three times, and all three were this week.

 

[BoeingBoy]

One of us is doing something wrong....

Jim

 

[EastUS]

One of us is doing something wrong....

Jim

It just gets "worse" from there BB. I have to completely agree with your observation: "....anyone that read Nic's previous pilot awards and still expected DOH was only setting themselves up for disappointment."

Maybe it's the weather..... :blink:

 

[A320 Driver]

Of course the satisfaction with the choice of Nic was before the MC was backed into the DOH corner by the MEC and pilot group. There's absolutely no way to prove one way or the other, but I'm convinced if the East position had been some form of ratio with fences around the widebodies and attrition the whole seniority integration would be behind you now.

I wholeheartedly agree with your second statement and said as much all the way back to the ALPA forum - anyone that read Nic's previous pilot awards and still expected DOH was only setting themselves up for disappointment.

Jim

I went to one of the early MC meetings. I had heard the DOH drums beating, but looking at their charts and graphs, I saw no justification for it. When I asked the MC member about DOH, his exact words were "we'd get laughed out of court".

I was comfortable with their presentation and strategy that day. That is NOT what NIC was given for whatever reason and here we are.

All that being said, I never envisioned an award that so effectivly ended the careers of so many F/Os destroying ALL chances of them ever upgrading. But even though East played a big part in it, it doesn't make it any easier to swallow. These things are rarely fair, but seldom do they do so much harm to those who have suffered for so long.

Driver B)

 

[Piedmont1984]

Well, I hate to stir things up, but yesterday I had two east jumpseat riders on my flight from PHX who were both denied J/S on west metal earlier in the day.

In one case, the west captain would not even come out of the cockpit, but instead sent his F/O to inform the rider that he could not go.

PHX C/P showed up on the scene and - well the outcome was the same.

Tell me again which group ia angry and full of rage again, I forgot?

 

[ROACLT]

Well, I hate to stir things up, but yesterday I had two east jumpseat riders on my flight from PHX who were both denied J/S on west metal earlier in the day.

In one case, the west captain would not even come out of the cockpit, but instead sent his F/O to inform the rider that he could not go.

PHX C/P showed up on the scene and - well the outcome was the same.

Tell me again which group ia angry and full of rage again, I forgot?

If your company has no position on this, how can they force guys to work together without breaching a safety argument? If the company buys the argument that just having an East/West jumpseater is cause to create a distraction that would be a safety concern, how could they discipline or challenge a pilot decision to not work with East/West pilot under the same argument?

 

[EastUS]

In one case, the west captain would not even come out of the cockpit, but instead sent his F/O to inform the rider that he could not go.

Perhaps said "captain" was simply evidencing his hearty excess of personal "Integrity"....?

 

[electricjet98]

Well, I hate to stir things up, but yesterday I had two east jumpseat riders on my flight from PHX who were both denied J/S on west metal earlier in the day.

In one case, the west captain would not even come out of the cockpit, but instead sent his F/O to inform the rider that he could not go.

PHX C/P showed up on the scene and - well the outcome was the same.

Tell me again which group ia angry and full of rage again, I forgot?

I appologize if that is happening; I'm sure that it is only a minority of west pilots reciprocating for that same action by a minority of east pilots. It is happening on both sides.

I've recently been doing CLT & DCA...had one east fo on reserve up front with us going to CLT and said he hasn't had any problems. Couple of months ago I had a 330 capt. based in PHL but lives in PIT where he also has a business involving navigation equipment for boats working in the harbor there. Can't remember his name but that should at least give you an idea if you want to verify. We had an open seat in back PIT-PHX (he went on to SAN) and I simply told him that if he didn't want to sit between a couple of fat ladies his could join us up front. He hesitated but came up front...and we had a good, friendly discusion all the way to PHX.

EJ

 

[EastUS]

If your company has no position on this, how can they force guys to work together without breaching a safety argument? If the company buys the argument that just having an East/West jumpseater is cause to create a distraction that would be a safety concern, how could they discipline or challenge a pilot decision to not work with East/West pilot under the same argument?

Good question.

 

[electricjet98]

If your company has no position on this, how can they force guys to work together without breaching a safety argument? If the company buys the argument that just having an East/West jumpseater is cause to create a distraction that would be a safety concern, how could they discipline or challenge a pilot decision to not work with East/West pilot under the same argument?

They are currently doing this because they can using thier PIC authority and they have no repercussions for doing so. Safety concern? Probably not so much as not wishing to have someone looking over their shoulder ready to run to the authorities with anything they saw, or willing to embellish or just make-up what they saw. When peolpe are actually tasked with working together, we have no-fly provisions that will keep them from working with someone they don't wish to work with. Now if they simply bid to no-fly everyone from the "other-side", they'll have some explaining to do. Once it starts costing them to not work with someone for which they don't have a legitimate reason for choosing to no-fly, they'll realize that people can agree to disagree and still work to gether. People of different political persuasions and religions do it all the time.

 

[electricjet98]

I went to one of the early MC meetings. I had heard the DOH drums beating, but looking at their charts and graphs, I saw no justification for it. When I asked the MC member about DOH, his exact words were "we'd get laughed out of court".

I was comfortable with their presentation and strategy that day. That is NOT what NIC was given for whatever reason and here we are.

All that being said, I never envisioned an award that so effectivly ended the careers of so many F/Os destroying ALL chances of them ever upgrading. But even though East played a big part in it, it doesn't make it any easier to swallow. These things are rarely fair, but seldom do they do so much harm to those who have suffered for so long.

Driver B)

So Driver, the lesson of "Don't over-reach" is what should have been learned by the pilot group & MEC forcing the MC to push only DOH; just look at what they got in return. Does it seem like USAPA and their supportors missed that day in school?