US Pilots' Labor Thread 5/26 to 6/2-- NO PERSONAL COMMENTS

[HPearlyretiree]

Nicstolemyjob,
I completely agree with your rational and logical POV. I am completely baffled that many west counterpart on this board fail to grasp the obvious. Great Post!
FA

What part of "Binding" don't you get?

USAPA is a cowardly attempt to duck responsibility and disinfranchise the west. The actions in CLT are clearly the ones of a desperate group who realizes they are pulling some crap, and don't want it to be seen.

If they were truly open and unbiased, they would welcome cameras into their meetings, they would welcome questions from members.

But, when you try to control and hide content, that is the sign of desperation. If they have nothing to hide, why not act like it.

Nic is it, get over it, both sides manned up and went to binding arbitration, not the west's fault that the east weenied out on their responsibilities.

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

What "atrocity"? That a visiting rep from another domicile wanted to record a meeting, apparently without asking first as any respecting person would do? That this "apparently respectable" rep then decided to throw a tantrum when denied?


The fellows from PHL would have asked permission first. If told "no", they then would not have then thrown themselves on the floor, metaphorically kicking and screaming like any spoiled child.

The screed from the LAS rep is full of subjective victimizations passed off as "fact".

If you want to engage in a respectable manner, you will find plenty of support. However, coming into someone else's meeting and making demands and acting like a five year old is hardly considered "respectful" in any part of the world.

Complete nonsense. Please post where it says union meetings cannot be recorded? This union is supposed to be "completely transparent." And that is a direct quote from the usapa Communications czar.

And please stop referring to fellow pilots and union officials as children. You are more mature, more articulate than that. No?

 

[Tiger 1050]

Indeed. Lets talk about the bolded statement for a moment, shall we? First, the preface: "should our situation stay static, then sure it would be fine"

Now, since Nicolau decided that a snapshot including perceived financial strengths was appropriate when determining "the list"....and in HIS mind, the west was in a financially superior position at the "snapshot".....why do you now equate the "potential unknowns" as a qualifier going forward to justify the behavior out west in enforcing the Nic.

Lets take a snapshot TODAY, shall we?...no? WHY NOT?

I'll answer for you: HE WAS WRONG.

Thats why.

First, the reality of the situation when this merger occurred was far different than today. Let's put it to you this way. The east was on the operating table dead. Thanks to your blood transfusion you survived. The west may have been at the hospital also but was at worst walking into the ER with an undiagnosed ailment. Clearly the situations were worlds apart. Mr Nicolau could not predict the future, but he could easily see where this was going to go should the two sides remain separate.

So a couple of points to acknowledge here:

You were bleeding to death.

Thus your SENIORITY was severely damaged and bought 18+ year guys bottom of the barrel positions.

Now, it seems the "financial strengths" of the respective carriers' shine a new light on things...no?

And this is the compelling factor that causes the west to drool over shutting down USAPA and DOH...and running with a FLAWED NIC DECISION because you are all seeing the reality of the markets...west is losing...east is winning.

We notice that Nicolau didn't see it either....and $$ strength has no bearing on union seniority anyway.

When two companies merge they combine their costs. Any idea what our cost is today per seat mile? About 14 cents. And that's being generous. Any idea what AWA's was prior to the merger? 8-9 cents. So while we certainly were not cleaning up in the fight out west we were holding our own. Once the company combined all the books however the brain-trust in Tempe found that their modest routes out west have now become poor performers. They see the higher yields out east and start to shuffle as must flying out there as they can. Problem is they, as past management, fail to realize that their own reaction of chasing big yields while foregoing a well balanced route structure is precisely what landed you where your were on May 18, 2005. I mean seriously! IF you were doing so well why the back to back trips into bankruptcy? Of course I'd appreciate and honest answer without the conspiracy theory bits.

From Tiger:
"serious protection should the airline decide to reduce its size. Totally unfair."

Why? Did a current snapshot disadvantage you in your mind? The one that indicates west shrinkage?

Thats what DOH hire does, friend..it removes all the BS that Nicolau based his decision on...and why was it wrong? Because (S) happens and things change...but YOU want your seniority based on the VERY THING that defies logic today.

Because you have today made our case.

First you fail to accept that both sides agreed to take this to arbitration. Second you fail to accept that you are supporting an entity that is/was ABITRARILY imposing a seniority list with NO input from the west. Yeah! Unfair. But I suppose as long as you can rob someone to pay your bills it's all good. 'Cause you're payin' your bills right?

A current snapshot is flawed here for one reason. You have held the process that we agreed to hostage. But hey spin it any way you like. You know it's true as does the rest of the world.

DOH does nothing more than give you what YOU want friend! You were at the plate swinging hard, the count was 0-2. At best you you ripped one down the third base line thinking it had enough steam to get over the wall. As you swagger towards first base you fail to realize that it went foul! Stop and think. Do you really believe that you are gonna make yourself whole on the backs of the west? Better appeal to the Umpire! Pun intended...

 

[cleardirect]

A few lingering thoughts: firstly, regarding the unauthorized taping attempt at a BPR meeting...

History has already shown us all that the west seeks to interfere, disrupt, and create a counter-agenda to all things East or USAPA. That fact is clear. Gathering 'sound bites and snippets" of Union business is obviously thinly veiled as a "communication forum' but moreover, it will undoubtedly be used as west propaganda to disrupt the day to day business of the union at this airline. The intent is clear...the track record is established.
That the West reps want to "document a meeting" for their "uninformed" constituency is laughable.
90% of their constituency are not members of the union at all. You want to know whats going on?...become a member in good standing, just like any other union. No shortcuts. You people out west want all the information without joining or paying dues..." a simple youtube video will suffice".....what a joke.

You seem to want the benefits of a union without any of the responsibility that goes with it....you will be sorely disappointed.

If the governing body at a union meeting wants to tape it for their review, or their members in good standing to watch on what will soon be a secure union website; thats their right.

I've spoken with Pat Day personally...I think he's a heckuva guy, he certainly went to the wall for me when called upon....but, then again, I AM a member in good standing who is not attempting some form of sabotage with my union...you out west seem to be doing just that....(what was the term Metroyet?....a virus?) You westies want some cookies? Buy 'em from the Girl Scouts...

Don't get carried away with your temporary DFR ruling: it only goes so far, and for so long....there's a entire chapter that is yet to be played.

Post #14


Member
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Group: Registered Member
Posts: 51
Joined: 15-May 09
Member No.: 15,629




QUOTE (traderjake @ May 27 2009, 04:34 PM) *
A forum on their web site where those who are critical of their policies can post.

You mean so that the union website would turn into this one? Where critics would drone on and on with borderline harrassment? That kind of site? Never happen.
You want a platform to be provided for you to act like you and your west friends do: and you already have one right here.
Go back to your AWAPPA site, or the AOL site, or just stay here. Then you guys can high-five and rant to each other all you want, nobody else really wants to hear it.
I'll visit again after Wake has delivered a remedy, in the meantime this site has become a complete waste of time between East and West.

Once again an east pilot not standing by his word. Took less then 8 hours to break your promise.

 

[cleardirect]

Stole, good post. One thing not asked is what would mighty ALPA do? They had a policy of no taping of MEC business meetings. Sometimes ALPA National brought in their video team to tape special events, but that was usually for their own propoganda purposes or for road shows. Even then, they never taped the debates, discussions and votes. Id put our BPRs record up against the "democratic" record of ALPA any day.

On this freedom of speech thing, again Id put our BPR record up against ALPA any day.
PHL: "Democratic" ALPA also got rid of the PHL Reps for not signing a McCarthy-style loyalty oath.

CLT: ALPA allowed LEC Reps to serve until "the end" of the mothership. That was six months AFTER they were served with recall resolutions. ALPA National refused to honor the Constitution. CLT "Meetings" became informational get-togethers, "In-meetings," where no business was done.

Pension: here one day, gone the next.
Snooper

That old ALPA boogeyman is back.

Who cares what ALPA did? They have been off the property for over a year. When are you going to realize that and accept it?

Pat Day said that he was going to tape the meeting. Communications has been working on a way to broadcast the BPR meetings. So what ALPA did and what usapa is doing are two different things.

This is a self described modern electronic union. Heck even the company tapes the crew news and posts them. Is usapa some secret organization that only allows information to the anointed? Generally 2/3 of the pilots are flying at any on time. Between not being in base or plain don’t care you are not going to get many pilots to a meeting. Taping and broadcasting them when it is convenient is a good thing right? Would you rather have informed members or uninformed members?

What do you think is better, seeing the tape and making up your mind or hearing it second third or fourth hand what happened? I sat through the entire trial I have a good sense of what went on. Can a third hand account give someone the whole picture of eights days, why the verdict came out the way it did?

Take the time, set the emotion aside for just a second. Why would the CLT chair what to block information? Why is he keeping information from you? Pat Day was taping the event. If the LAS chair edited his tape in a different way then both tapes could be viewed and compared. But now we will see if CLT even puts out the tape they have. My guess is no. Don’t forget. When usapa came to PHX for the road show they taped it also. Have you ever seen their edited version? Why not? Information needs to be released. All of it, good or bad.

 

[nic4us]

The irony is overwhelming. I mean zero disrespect for the situation faced by all currently furloughed here, but; you do recall that, according to Nic, that furloughed people count for nothing?

I was most displeased that the vote went against the provision of medical benefits for those suffering furlough out west, and very much hope we can get everyone back working via union proceedings asap, but must fully agree with Awe here = "it would be so simple for the west to provide this benefit to its furloughed brethren, that it hasn't happened is what i mean by pathetic group." The complete failure to look out for one's very own, both in earlier not providing any legal defense funds for the marvelous "Cactus 18", and now the total lack of any evidenced west concern for those furloughed speaks volumes....

Of course; "the total lack of any evidenced west concern for those furloughed" was a cornerstone of Nic, so....I guess none should be at all surprised here.

Perhaps the solution would be for USAPA to arrange for a voluntary donation from West pilots to a fund which would be used to pay West furloughees (and east non-members if there is such a thing) medical coverage. Would probably get funding from both sides.

Frankly, I would have rather seen Marcio propose this at the meeting, rather than argue with Day about videotaping.

Although I do not know how much they have recieved, the Cactus 18 have recieved financial support from the West but not directly from AWAPPA, only the AWAPA directors who were named benefited from AWAPPA funds. I personally have a little pin that cost $250, and have seen quite a few more.

The fundamental cornerstone of Nic is in my opinion, that everyone will keep their status. The furlough's status was...well furloughed....it was not a lack of concern for them, just no way to justify having them gain status at the expense of people who's status was employed.

 

[hp_fa]

Indeed. Lets talk about the bolded statement for a moment, shall we? First, the preface: "should our situation stay static, then sure it would be fine"

Now, since Nicolau decided that a snapshot including perceived financial strengths was appropriate when determining "the list"....and in HIS mind, the west was in a financially superior position at the "snapshot".....why do you now equate the "potential unknowns" as a qualifier going forward to justify the behavior out west in enforcing the Nic.

Lets take a snapshot TODAY, shall we?...no? WHY NOT?

I'll answer for you: HE WAS WRONG.

Nic,

Your analysis misses one important fact and that is that the Nicolau Award was not appealable. The only way that it could of been overturned was if there had been some form of gross application of existing ALPA merger policy. East argued that to the ALPA Executive Board and the Award was eventually confirmed after the proceedings at Herndon, the Rice Committee, Wye River and the Blue Ribbon Committee. Frankly, I believe ALPA waited too long to present the Award to the Company, but that is my opinion.

East failed to meaningfully negotiate a seniority list that differed from DOH/LOS. When West did not accept that position both parties agreed to place their dispute to a third-party and accept the results. When Nicolau did not provide DOH/LOS, but rather a blended seniority list, USAPA was born in order to create an avenue to use the majority of East pilots with the form of seniority list they wanted instead of what was contained in the Award. If there were any doubts about this they were erased when Bradford's correspondence to other pilots and attorneys was introduced into evidence at the Addington trial.

The real questions you should be asking should be directed to Jack Stephan. Why did the East MEC not attempt to negotiate anything other than DOH/LOS? Why did they instruct Mr. Freund to continue with that position even at the 11th Hour after Mr. Nicolau asked East and West for revised positions? Was Mr. Stephan so wedded to his position that he feared to actually lead East where it really needed to go instead of worrying about his future electablity?

 

[hp_fa]

The account of Pat Day's behavior is accurate. He was a complete a s s. Having said that, all Pat did was give Marcio ample excuse to paint USAPA with the same brush and use the interaction with him to, by inference, discount the presentation by Seham.

Lee's presentation was thoroughly professional, informative and very convincing. The questions asked by Marcio and Jeff were more loaded statements than questions but Lee, unlike Pat, handled them competently. All due respect to our LAS Chairman but the whole thing was planned as a setup which was planned to be filmed and used to stoke a fire that is burning just fine on its own.

The simple truth is that both sides are well beyond convincing of each other's point of view so this type of effort is futile at best and, despite what might be useful intentions, only spins people into a reason killing frenzy.

BP

Can I assume that you were there based on the perception of Pat Day's behavior? If so did anyone try and moderate Mr. Day's behavior?

It seems more likely than not that the questions, as depicted in Marcio's communication, were designed to be tough and perhaps loaded. However, as Marcio stated, this was a rare opportunity for him to speak to Seham, something he apparently has not been able to do even as a BPR representative. Also, it does not seem reasonable to assume that Seham is coming to the PHX or LAS domicile to be available for any Q & A session so this appeared to be his one opportunity. So, under the totality of the circumstances was he and the pilot who attended with him, unreasonable and if so, how?

(BTW, if you were present I give you credit for attempting to be involved in the union no matter how you might view matters. Participation is to be commended.)

 

[AWE_SHUCKS]

Honor is what you do with a Jumpseat request...you honor it.

Integrity is what keeps a guy from taking a job at a s h i t outfit and dragging down idustry wages for the rest, you guys flushed that down the toilet a long time ago.

 

[prechilill]

Why did they instruct Mr. Freund to continue with that position even at the 11th Hour

Freund worked for the America West MEC, Katz worked for the AAA MEC.

 

[Tiger 1050]

Honor is what you do with a Jumpseat request...you honor it.

Integrity is what keeps a guy from taking a job at a s h i t outfit and dragging down idustry wages for the rest, you guys flushed that down the toilet a long time ago.

Never denied anyone. Not that I could have anyhow, I was just an F/O. But none were denied that I witnessed. Either way pretty weak. Your frustration and consternation are shining brightly now.

Wow! So let me get this straight. I took a job at AWA and that means I have no integrity? Better look in the mirror bub. I don't recall any AAA pilot trying to help us in our plight. Where were you? You can't even man-up and accept an agreement because you don't like the outcome. Your definition of integrity reveals serious character flaws and further cements the idea that you guys out east truly are zealots. Grab your backpack of C-4 buddy. Then you can claim Widebody Commandant of the afterlife. Maybe you'll even get 72 hot flight attendants too!

 

[ableoneable]

Integrity is what keeps a guy from taking a job at a s h i t outfit and dragging down idustry wages for the rest, you guys flushed that down the toilet a long time ago.

AWE pilots have negotiated two contracts; the first negotiation/ratification took place under the auspices of chapter 11, the second occurred in the aftermath of 9/11.

Even given that, the AWE contract is still better in pay than the AAA contract and is in fact superior in the scheduling, STD and work rules sections, to name a few.

What is the difference between a pilot "taking" a job at a s h i t carrier and a pilot group voting to reduce their own pay below the level of that "s h i t" carrier and adopting worse work rules?

I am confused as to why all of you did not simply quit on the spot, or better yet just not demand (ala- Let my Daddy vote) that you be given unimpeded access to the white flag? After all you certainly were doing your part to "drag down the industry."

Are these completely different and unrelated?

Oh, I see - they are completely different because the first instance was the other guy and the second instance was you. The point of perspective drives the result. Now I understand.

This is why it is impossible to reason with USAPPA et all. Apparently only court orders and injunctions will get the job done. Enjoy them.

 

[exB717Flyer]

Lee's presentation was thoroughly professional, informative and very convincing.

If he's so good why couldn't he convince a federal judge or jury? All I've seen him be good at is telling Easties what they want to hear.

 

[Tiger 1050]

If he's so good why couldn't he convince a federal judge or jury? All I've seen him be good at is telling Easties what they want to hear.

DING!

 

[EastUS]

Who cares what ALPA did? They have been off the property for over a year. When are you going to realize that and accept it?

So what ALPA did and what usapa is doing are two different things.

You're quite correct in your above observations. I gently suggest an enhanced west awareness of the "Who cares what ALPA did?" concept in order to facilitate some/any mutual progress.