US Pilots' Labor Thread 5/26 to 6/2-- NO PERSONAL COMMENTS

[nic4us]

Hey Tiger,have they gotten a fund from the west yet to buy medical for furloughs? East bought me some. wave your honor and integrity flags some more, pathetic group, really pathetic

AWE_SHUCKS,

I feel compelled to inform you that the east did not buy you insurance. It is my understanding that it was purchased by USAPA, who raised the money through an assessment of its members. It is also my understanding that there are West members of USAPA.

So, if the union can get its priorities straight, (first priority in my opinion should be to get recalls happening) and you accept a recall, and are lucky enough to ever fly with a former West captain, a good way to break the ice might be to say thanks for that assessment.

 

[AWE_SHUCKS]

AWE_SHUCKS,

I feel compelled to inform you that the east did not buy you insurance. It is my understanding that it was purchased by USAPA, who raised the money through an assessment of its members. It is also my understanding that there are West members of USAPA.

So, if the union can get its priorities straight, (first priority in my opinion should be to get recalls happening) and you accept a recall, and are lucky enough to ever fly with a former West captain, a good way to break the ice might be to say thanks for that assessment.

the percentage that comes from west pilots is essentially what 120/3000, ill give him back his quarter and tell him to by some west furloughee insurance with it. get real fella, im not buying this rhetorical bs. you guys are like Hannity, Olberman and Oreilly all rolled up into one useless blowhard mouthpiece for non-information and useless jibba jabba.

 

[traderjake]

On my advice, they do it strictly and entirely to piss you off.

Can't respond to the question because the obvious answer makes you look bad...
attack the person asking. Pretty shallow tactic.

 

[Nicstolemyjob]

A few lingering thoughts: firstly, regarding the unauthorized taping attempt at a BPR meeting...

History has already shown us all that the west seeks to interfere, disrupt, and create a counter-agenda to all things East or USAPA. That fact is clear. Gathering 'sound bites and snippets" of Union business is obviously thinly veiled as a "communication forum' but moreover, it will undoubtedly be used as west propaganda to disrupt the day to day business of the union at this airline. The intent is clear...the track record is established.
That the West reps want to "document a meeting" for their "uninformed" constituency is laughable.
90% of their constituency are not members of the union at all. You want to know whats going on?...become a member in good standing, just like any other union. No shortcuts. You people out west want all the information without joining or paying dues..." a simple youtube video will suffice".....what a joke.

You seem to want the benefits of a union without any of the responsibility that goes with it....you will be sorely disappointed.

If the governing body at a union meeting wants to tape it for their review, or their members in good standing to watch on what will soon be a secure union website; thats their right.

I've spoken with Pat Day personally...I think he's a heckuva guy, he certainly went to the wall for me when called upon....but, then again, I AM a member in good standing who is not attempting some form of sabotage with my union...you out west seem to be doing just that....(what was the term Metroyet?....a virus?) You westies want some cookies? Buy 'em from the Girl Scouts...

Don't get carried away with your temporary DFR ruling: it only goes so far, and for so long....there's a entire chapter that is yet to be played.

 

[Nicstolemyjob]

AWE,
Okay in all seriousness and all the a-holeness turned off allow me to provide my view. That's all it is. My view.

Pathetic? Maybe from YOUR view. Frankly I am serious when I'd rather see the money go towards our preservation of the Nicolau award. Not so much because of what it can do for me individually but because I believe it is never appropriate for any group to act in an arbitrary manner when a minority group gets hurt. The DOH with C&R's is shallow and transparent. We know that should our situation stay static then sure it would be fine. Not preferable but tolerable. However, both of us know that nothing ever remains static. So we see the east pilots here gloat about the west shrinkage and what do you think happens according to the C&R's if shrinkage occurs and a pilot(s) is forced to an east base? That's right! Straight DOH.

Indeed. Lets talk about the bolded statement for a moment, shall we? First, the preface: "should our situation stay static, then sure it would be fine"

Now, since Nicolau decided that a snapshot including perceived financial strengths was appropriate when determining "the list"....and in HIS mind, the west was in a financially superior position at the "snapshot".....why do you now equate the "potential unknowns" as a qualifier going forward to justify the behavior out west in enforcing the Nic.

Lets take a snapshot TODAY, shall we?...no? WHY NOT?

I'll answer for you: HE WAS WRONG.

Thats why.

Now, it seems the "financial strengths" of the respective carriers' shine a new light on things...no?

And this is the compelling factor that causes the west to drool over shutting down USAPA and DOH...and running with a FLAWED NIC DECISION because you are all seeing the reality of the markets...west is losing...east is winning.

We notice that Nicolau didn't see it either....and $$ strength has no bearing on union seniority anyway.

From Tiger:
"serious protection should the airline decide to reduce its size. Totally unfair."

Why? Did a current snapshot disadvantage you in your mind? The one that indicates west shrinkage?

Thats what DOH hire does, friend..it removes all the BS that Nicolau based his decision on...and why was it wrong? Because (S) happens and things change...but YOU want your seniority based on the VERY THING that defies logic today.

Because you have today made our case.

 

[ussnark]

The CLT chairman had his own cameraman there. So someone did record this atrocity.

What "atrocity"? That a visiting rep from another domicile wanted to record a meeting, apparently without asking first as any respecting person would do? That this "apparently respectable" rep then decided to throw a tantrum when denied?

Again read carefully. This was written by the LAS domicile chairman. A member in good standing and a member of the governing body. Would Capt. Day have treated the Chairman from PHL with the same disrespect?

The fellows from PHL would have asked permission first. If told "no", they then would not have then thrown themselves on the floor, metaphorically kicking and screaming like any spoiled child.

The screed from the LAS rep is full of subjective victimizations passed off as "fact".

If you want to engage in a respectable manner, you will find plenty of support. However, coming into someone else's meeting and making demands and acting like a five year old is hardly considered "respectful" in any part of the world.

 

[fatherabraham]

Indeed. Lets talk about the bolded statement for a moment, shall we? First, the preface: "should our situation stay static, then sure it would be fine"

Now, since Nicolau decided that a snapshot including perceived financial strengths was appropriate when determining "the list"....and in HIS mind, the west was in a financially superior position at the "snapshot".....why do you now equate the "potential unknowns" as a qualifier going forward to justify the behavior out west in enforcing the Nic.

Lets take a snapshot TODAY, shall we?...no? WHY NOT?

I'll answer for you: HE WAS WRONG.

Thats why.

Now, it seems the "financial strengths" of the respective carriers' shine a new light on things...no?

And this is the compelling factor that causes the west to drool over shutting down USAPA and DOH...and running with a FLAWED NIC DECISION because you are all seeing the reality of the markets...west is losing...east is winning.

We notice that Nicolau didn't see it either....and $$ strength has no bearing on union seniority anyway.

From Tiger:
"serious protection should the airline decide to reduce its size. Totally unfair."

Why? Did a current snapshot disadvantage you in your mind? The one that indicates west shrinkage?

Thats what DOH hire does, friend..it removes all the BS that Nicolau based his decision on...and why was it wrong? Because (S) happens and things change...but YOU want your seniority based on the VERY THING that defies logic today.

Because you have today made our case.

Nicstolemyjob,
I completely agree with your rational and logical POV. I am completely baffled that many west counterpart on this board fail to grasp the obvious. Great Post!
FA

 

[luvn737s]

I'm astonished at how much support Mr. Day (who , ironically, apparently would rather not have his deeds ever see the light of day) gets for trying to marginalize a west rep. Did they forget so quickly that they lost a federal case over this very same behavior?

Why not, in response to the verdict, do everything possible to show cooperation with the west, especially prior to damages phase and perhaps soften the blow a little?

Hasn't the fantasy that the east can behave however it likes because USAPA is it's private club, cost everyone out there enough already? It will not be long before the juggernaut comes to a halt as West members join with those in the east expecting more from their leaders. The free pass will be revoked.

Instead of slapping this Mr. Day on the back, he should be censured for his behavior if not recalled and a copy of the tape of the meeting should be released to the membership as a demonstration of transparency and good faith. Why hide a meeting from the membership?

 

[EastUS]

Oh the "west" fund... Honestly as a furloughed pilot I'd rather they save up all the money and use it to jam the Nic... Well you get it I'm sure.

The irony is overwhelming. I mean zero disrespect for the situation faced by all currently furloughed here, but; you do recall that, according to Nic, that furloughed people count for nothing?

I was most displeased that the vote went against the provision of medical benefits for those suffering furlough out west, and very much hope we can get everyone back working via union proceedings asap, but must fully agree with Awe here = "it would be so simple for the west to provide this benefit to its furloughed brethren, that it hasn't happened is what i mean by pathetic group." The complete failure to look out for one's very own, both in earlier not providing any legal defense funds for the marvelous "Cactus 18", and now the total lack of any evidenced west concern for those furloughed speaks volumes....

Of course; "the total lack of any evidenced west concern for those furloughed" was a cornerstone of Nic, so....I guess none should be at all surprised here.

 

[EastUS]

.....and are lucky enough to ever fly with a former West captain, ...

I did actually try to experience that inestimable good fortune once..but, was denied the jump seat while the "gentleman" was still shaking my hand. :blink: It must represent some ritual form of greeting and good fellowship unique to the west

 

[boeingplt]

Having spent my fair share of time at union meetings (in many capacities), I have serious doubts as to the accuracy of this bologna.

It sounds as if it were written by USA320, eh NYCBus?

It seems interesting that, again, there is nobody who recorded this "atrocity."

The beat goes on.

The account of Pat Day's behavior is accurate. He was a complete a s s. Having said that, all Pat did was give Marcio ample excuse to paint USAPA with the same brush and use the interaction with him to, by inference, discount the presentation by Seham.

Lee's presentation was thoroughly professional, informative and very convincing. The questions asked by Marcio and Jeff were more loaded statements than questions but Lee, unlike Pat, handled them competently. All due respect to our LAS Chairman but the whole thing was planned as a setup which was planned to be filmed and used to stoke a fire that is burning just fine on its own.

The simple truth is that both sides are well beyond convincing of each other's point of view so this type of effort is futile at best and, despite what might be useful intentions, only spins people into a reason killing frenzy.

BP

 

[Megasnoop]

A few lingering thoughts: firstly, regarding the unauthorized taping attempt at a BPR meeting...

Stole, good post. One thing not asked is what would mighty ALPA do? They had a policy of no taping of MEC business meetings. Sometimes ALPA National brought in their video team to tape special events, but that was usually for their own propoganda purposes or for road shows. Even then, they never taped the debates, discussions and votes. Id put our BPRs record up against the "democratic" record of ALPA any day.

On this freedom of speech thing, again Id put our BPR record up against ALPA any day.
PHL: "Democratic" ALPA also got rid of the PHL Reps for not signing a McCarthy-style loyalty oath.

CLT: ALPA allowed LEC Reps to serve until "the end" of the mothership. That was six months AFTER they were served with recall resolutions. ALPA National refused to honor the Constitution. CLT "Meetings" became informational get-togethers, "In-meetings," where no business was done.

Pension: here one day, gone the next.
Snooper

 

[nic4us]

the percentage that comes from west pilots is essentially what 120/3000, ill give him back his quarter and tell him to by some west furloughee insurance with it. get real fella, im not buying this rhetorical bs.

Nice sentiment, however, in our hypothetical situation, if you have been recalled there would be no West furloughee.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Lee's presentation was thoroughly professional, informative and very convincing.

You're not alone as what I've noticed over time is that there is a suprising number of people who are willing to stick with, and continue to pay, an attorney whose does nothing other than lose. It's truly amazing.

 

[prechilill]

Lee's presentation was thoroughly professional, informative and very convincing. The questions asked by Marcio and Jeff were more loaded statements than questions but Lee, unlike Pat, handled them competently.

PLEASE, do not get rid of Seham, at least not until after the appeals process is completed. Thanks!
And I also would like to thank Cleary and the east domicile reps for their open displays of hostility towards the west (i.e. furlough medical vote, domicile meetings, rancorous statements in updates, etc.) and most importantly the declarations of perrmanent separate ops. Thank you so much!

P.S. The critical statements about Judge Wake and the conduct of the trial, as well as the jurors, were great too! Keep it up, guys!