US Pilots Labor Thread 5/13-19--NO PERSONAL REMARKS

[NiceLandingCaptain]

I can just see it now:

Al the eastyz search engines are being pounded with:

appeal, appeal, appeal ! ! !

Face the facts folks: DOH is dead.

 

[exB717Flyer]

Any remedy WILL require west pilots to join USAPA in order to receive relief... otherwise the court is engaging in union busting tactics.

Your interpretation of the law is as screwy as counselor Seham's. US Airways is an Agency Shop. That means membership is not required and no court can order it nor require it. IMO it's in the West's best interest to join but that's another issue.

Apparently I was typing at the same time as Cleardirect. I'll let it stay anyway.

 

[ChockJockey]

Lettered in forensics??!!! Wow! Did you get the matching sweater, too?

It's green!

So, what you're telling me in oh-so-many words is that the work atmosphere is so toxic here that it will never be a fun place to work no matter what we do.

Not at all; you've either done a poor job of taking me out of context or a poor job of understanding my carefully crafted paragraph. But at least you can drive a bus, right? Seriously though in a year's time you might actually be driving a city bus. This makes me happy and sad.

When I spoke of damage being done, I was referring to damage already inflicted on any lasting career many of you hope to develop at this airline. It's a stain that's not going to come out. The longer this ordeal is allowed to continue, the more the distinction between victory and defeat will become blurred, until, regardless the outcome, you'll come to find that the inevitable endgame is a Pyrrhic victory.

I can't say I blame you for looking out for number one, but when this come at the cost of the continuing depression of yourselves, your colleagues, and your families, it only becomes inevitable that one comes to realize that the cost thus incurred in fighting has surpassed any hope of spoils or reparations after the dust has settled. That is a nugget of common sense that a few here seem to have grasped but many refuse to.

In a situation such as this, one of the most difficult things any combatant can do (on either side) is realize that he himself is a part of the problem. Not the East, not the West, and not just Tempe: it's every man that throws aside his virtues to become a partisan scoundrel.

And that's news how?

There's nothing that can be told to he who will not listen.

Thought maybe some would appreciate a fresh perspective, but I guess I thought wrong. Keep up the good work, smashing job so far.



:waveoff:

 

[bigbusdrvr]

So now that the Addington case has been decided by the jury, what next for the case? does the judge make some ruling now or what? Other that the expected appeal, what happens now? any idea's?

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

The world waits with bated breath for usapa's next move. Because, contrary to reports as of late, usapa has everyone where they want them, they will call the shots. Period. End of story. They are usapa, and they will jack anyone and everyone around for as long as they like. There is nothing any of us can do about it.

And to top if all off, they are armed with a super lawyer, who is supremely confident they will prevail on appeal.

In all seriousness though, the west can never let down their guard, something underhanded is coming.

 

[AWE_SHUCKS]

Nope! On one is required to be a member of a union. Sorry federal law. Just like the judge can not impose a contract or force anyone to vote yes.

What he can do is in join the union from changing the Nicolau at all. It goes into section 22 untouched. Then the union is free to work on the rest of the contract as they see fit.(using the nicolau for all things seniority) If the west pilots choose not to join they accept whatever contract is eventually adopted. But it will have the Nicolau in it.

(using the nicolau for all things seniority) did you make this up?

 

[hp_fa]

So now that the Addington case has been decided by the jury, what next for the case? does the judge make some ruling now or what? Other that the expected appeal, what happens now? any idea's?

Judge Wake is crafting the exact verbage of the Permanent Injunction and a Declaratory Judgment which he has said will circulate to respective counsel for comments and that the documents will be finalized and signed no later than May 20th. At that point the time for filing a Notice of Appeal begins to run.

 

[john john]

So now that the Addington case has been decided by the jury, what next for the case? does the judge make some ruling now or what? Other that the expected appeal, what happens now? any idea's?

USAPA will negotiate for WEST/EAST while appealing the case and nic is in a lock box WHO HAS THE KEY?

 

[Captain Underpants]

What he can do is in join the union from changing the Nicolau at all. It goes into section 22 untouched. Then the union is free to work on the rest of the contract as they see fit.(using the nicolau for all things seniority)

What you are saying is the Court will have a line item veto power over any changes USAPA bargains into the CBA. The Court will determine what "things" are seniority and what are not. What is OK to bargain and what is off limits.

If that is true USAPA could not function as it would no longer have its bargaining rights. It would be impossible to produce a ratifiable contract. No union member could possibly accept a situation where the union's bargaining rights are controlled and dictated by an outside authority. That would be totally unacceptable and an extreme violation of labor law.

The only option then would be to start collecting cards again and vote in a new union without liability. Donate what is left in the union checkbook to Save the Whales and start over avoiding past mistakes.

underpants

 

[cleardirect]

(using the nicolau for all things seniority) did you make this up?

Why would I make that up?

AWA contract. Section 7 vacations E.5

All pilot vacations shall be awarded in seniority order according to position and vacation block category….

Section 24 A.2.a

First, the company shall award in SYSTEM SENIORITY ORDER, …

The system seniority will be the Nicolau list. I would guess that the east contract says the same thing. Is this becoming clear? No extra contractual add ons from usapa. The company is not going to have to maintain two lists. One for seniority and another for everything else. The list is the list. A system seniority list.

The arbitrated list.

ps underpants. Same answer. Anywhere it says system seniority list will use the arbitrated list.

 

[nycbusdriver]

This has been touched upon occasionally in the distant past on this board, and within the last few days it was brought up again by another poster in a similar form.

The only way the pilots of USAirways will get beyond this is to totally ameliorate the financial implications of the Nicolau award by changing the method by which we are paid. If the primary basis of our hourly wage becomes longevity based, rather than seat/status based, the impact of the Nicolau list on the east will become largely irrelevant. This type of remuneration may actually get even the east f/o's to vote yes to a contract with Nicolau.

Barring something along those lines (or another equally radical rethink,) we are very likely stuck with exactly what we have for many, many years to come.

The other factor is the company. Management is as happy as a pig in slop, and will likely remain that way no matter what we do. Even if we radically rethink our compensation methods, there is no guarantee that the company will go along. And there is little likelihood that sufficient pay raises will be offered in a conventional contract to get the east to ratify with Nicolau.

I'm not hopeful that any of us, east or west, will see an east/west ratifiable contract (no matter how it is put together) for years.

 

[spike99]

Why would I make that up?

AWA contract. Section 7 vacations E.5

All pilot vacations shall be awarded in seniority order according to position and vacation block category….

Section 24 A.2.a

First, the company shall award in SYSTEM SENIORITY ORDER, …

The system seniority will be the Nicolau list. I would guess that the east contract says the same thing. Is this becoming clear? No extra contractual add ons from usapa. The company is not going to have to maintain two lists. One for seniority and another for everything else. The list is the list. A system seniority list.

The arbitrated list.

ps underpants. Same answer. Anywhere it says system seniority list will use the arbitrated list.

And exactly why do you think the CBA will have to maintain the language from the previous contract? The "Nic" may be the seniority list, but how it is contained in the contract will be at the discretion of the CBA (USAPA) during the negotiations. Unless Judge Wake tries to stipulate parameters, no one can guess until his next ruling what might happen. His previous statements seem to say he can only order the inclusion of the list, not the ramifications, or other provisions of the contract to be voted on by the members.

 

[Tiger 1050]

This has been touched upon occasionally in the distant past on this board, and within the last few days it was brought up again by another poster in a similar form.

The only way the pilots of USAirways will get beyond this is to totally ameliorate the financial implications of the Nicolau award by changing the method by which we are paid. If the primary basis of our hourly wage becomes longevity based, rather than seat/status based, the impact of the Nicolau list on the east will become largely irrelevant. This type of remuneration may actually get even the east f/o's to vote yes to a contract with Nicolau.

Barring something along those lines (or another equally radical rethink,) we are very likely stuck with exactly what we have for many, many years to come.

The other factor is the company. Management is as happy as a pig in slop, and will likely remain that way no matter what we do. Even if we radically rethink our compensation methods, there is no guarantee that the company will go along. And there is little likelihood that sufficient pay raises will be offered in a conventional contract to get the east to ratify with Nicolau.

I'm not hopeful that any of us, east or west, will see an east/west ratifiable contract (no matter how it is put together) for years.

All-in-all I think you are on the right track. I've always maintained you (east) should get whatever you can. Just not at my (west) expense. The only problem is we tend to let the company determine the size of the pie. So how much goes to what longevity? More for the junior guys? More for the senior guys? I guess we've always had these problems but... You get my point, yes?

 

[Acquisition]

And exactly why do you think the CBA will have to maintain the language from the previous contract? The "Nic" may be the seniority list, but how it is contained in the contract will be at the discretion of the CBA (USAPA) during the negotiations. Unless Judge Wake tries to stipulate parameters, no one can guess until his next ruling what might happen. His previous statements seem to say he can only order the inclusion of the list, not the ramifications, or other provisions of the contract to be voted on by the members.

For the same reason usapa just lost their 1st DFR case.

 

[Tiger 1050]

For the same reason usapa just lost their 1st DFR case.

Man these guys are quick aren't they!