US Pilots Labor Thread 5/13-19--NO PERSONAL REMARKS

[NiceLandingCaptain]

Face it: DOH is dead. Period.

The seniority IS going to be done according to the Nicolau decision. The East tyrannic actions and superiority complex could not prevail over a group that is inferior in numbers only.

The sooner ALL face reality, the sooner we can move forward with a contract that we all deserve.

Put your pride aside Eastyz. Humility doesn't hurt.

The Usapa president and it's lawyer are fools. Time for both of them to go.......

 

[A320 Driver]

Face it: DOH is dead. Period.

The seniority IS going to be done according to the Nicolau decision. The East tyrannic actions and superiority complex could not prevail over a group that is inferior in numbers only.

The sooner ALL face reality, the sooner we can move forward with a contract that we all deserve.

Put your pride aside Eastyz. Humility doesn't hurt.

The Usapa president and it's lawyer are fools. Time for both of them to go.......

Good luck on your wish list. I don't think we will get a contract any time soon. Since I've been a U pilot (1989) I have not seen a mangement team that knew how to sustain a profit long enough to give us a reasonable contract. Parity plus one got us some good money for a short time, but it initially was a pay cut that blew up in Wolfe's face because United got a big raise. Since then, backing up again as always. We're not growing OR competing. The only thing we're good at is retreating.

Everyone makes money in the airline business except the airlines.

A320 Driver B)

 

[aquagreen73s]

I'm sorry I offended Aquagreen 737, was not my intention, but he'd love to get a check from the East guys, cash it and spend it. Won't win the war, won't stop it or slow it down. I see no future in any of this fighting. As I said before...the thing that bugged me the most about the Nic is his insinuation that I have no value. I believe that's wrong. We ticked him off when we wouldn't negotiate and he stuck it to us. No middle ground. Yeah, the top 517 went East, but what did anyone expect. We had a widebody operation and West didn't. Most of those pilots will be gone in the next few years anyway. Not so further down the list.

Out of breathe

A320 Driver B)

I wish to back off from my rhetoric. My apologies for typing too soon.

The point is, we in the West are really powerless as we can't change who runs the union. Going to court is no long term solution for anybody as all the West is really going to get out of this DFR is protection from the diabolical henchmen who have run the East MEC and now who run USAPA. You and HP are touching on the root cause and that's the ineffective arbitration litigation coming from the East. Bad advocacy leads to bad litigation which degrades the whole process. The problem was that nobody on the East ever wanted to admit the leadership made a mistake, so they compounded the problem with a lot of other dumb decisions. Empowering Jack Stephan was one, Bradford the other. Both of those men offered nothing but dead ends and that is exactly where we are all at now. No pilot is a clear winner in this. But Doug sure is.

If we are to move forward and try to mitigate the damage done to both sides, then we have to start by removing and sequestering those who championed the ideas that got us here. That means Cleary, Woody, Theuer, Cibatanni, etc. all have to go and be gone for good because for everyone on the West, that gang is face of the East. You guys needs to exorcise those bad deamons first, and then we can talk. Until that happens, I doubt there will not be any response from the West other than "we'll see you in court."

 

[hp_fa]

Agreed, and I didn't mean to sound mean-spirited either. Truth is, many pilots from this board want damages, money etc. What bothered me was after USAPA was voted in, West would not send reps to the BPR. Now, they can hide behind whatever fence they like, but the truth is, they wouldn't be part of the process. I am a USAPA member for one reason. I pay my dues and if I am so inclined, I can go to a meeting and throw down the BS flag. I don't agree with what they did in negotiations. I don't care for their leadership, but I pay my dues and have a right to vote. Many West guys paid that dues money to AWAPA or AOL. Fine, they won in court. USAPA was wrong to try to cram DOH down their throats. I don't agree with it, but I'm still part of the process.

You didn't sound mean-spirited to me. I just wanted my remarks to not be misconceived.

Frankly I believe you are in for a surprise. I would expect that the West folks are going to be joining USAPA en masse and soon. Unless I am very mistaken they stayed away from USAPA for a couple of reasons, but the overriding one I believe is advice of counsel while the Addington liability case was proceeding. Now that it has been decided I believe it is advantageous for them to join USAPA for two reasons, 1) they would be able to vote and have a say in the union; and, 2) perhaps they want to try and work together and get the mess behind them as soon as they can. (BTW, I do not have any actual knowledge regarding what counsel advised them. I am making educated guesses.)

In my view there are still problems in that occurring.

1. As members of USAPA who would negotiate for them against their own union and who would pay the bills for any such representation?

2. It is probably unreasonable to expect them to pay full dues since 4/18/08 in part because their dues would go to help pay for the very legal bills from the cause they were themselves funding and fighting. Perhaps an amount that would have been any objector's agency fee, less their amount of whatever proportional amount of legal fees in fighting against the Addington and Cactus 18 actions would be a good starting point to figure any arrearage, also waiving any late fees and halting any actions for failure to pay dues against any pilot. That would seem to be at least a good faith place to begin to discuss the joining of the two groups.

Personally I am hung up on the practicality of who pays for representing the West until a joint CBA is ratified. Based in large part by the comments from even East people in this forum I don't think Mr. Cleary wants to sing Kumbaya at the moment and he probably can't be trusted to meaningfully consider the feelings of West folks moving forward. Frankly I would love to hear some suggestions on how this could be done because the sooner these matters can be resolved means the sooner you can all focus your resources on the Company.

 

[hp_fa]

Oh, and despite Aqua and I seemingly posting the same thing at the same time today we are two entirely different people and we are no chatting on the phone about what to next double-team the forum about. I guess we are just seeing the same issues at about the same time today.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Personally I am hung up on the practicality of who pays for representing the West until a joint CBA is ratified. Based in large part by the comments from even East people in this forum I don't think Mr. Cleary wants to sing Kumbaya at the moment and he probably can't be trusted to meaningfully consider the feelings of West folks moving forward. Frankly I would love to hear some suggestions on how this could be done because the sooner these matters can be resolved means the sooner you can all focus your resources on the Company.

Your entire post is well balanced, HP, and I thank you for your edifying comments. However, you have hit the nail on the head when it comes to bringing the West on board and I'd like to respond to that. Unless the Clearly gang gets cleared out and contained permanently, I can't imagine any response from the West other than to say, "See you in court." So far, that's the only thing that has worked for us or will work as long as the Clearly gang is around.

The only way I can see the Clearly deamons permanently held at bay would to structure the union such that the West would have equal voting status, 1 -1, as with the East. But even then there is still the problem of trust and I'm not trying to rehash the tired old "integrity matters" argument, but I think there will always be grave concerns in the West over working with the East.

 

[skyflyr69]

The problem with going "all in" is that if the other side wins they don't have to drink the vinegar, it's all scotch for them.

If US AIRWAYS goes out of business it is not due to line employees but rather inept management. Pilots could work for free and STILL not save a company.

Final and binding is ok as LONG as windfalls and fairness are dealt with. Don't forget barbell aqusition group.


One group got a HUGE windfall. That is not "fair"

 

[Tiger 1050]

One group got a HUGE windfall. That is not "fair"

But you must admit that is a totally subjective opinion. Objectivity is the only thing that will move this forward...

BTW I am just as guilty. Just making an observation.

 

[EastUS]

The only way I can see the Clearly deamons permanently held at bay would to structure the union such that the West would have equal voting status, 1 -1, as with the East. But even then there is still the problem of trust and I'm not trying to rehash the tired old "integrity matters" argument, but I think there will always be grave concerns in the West over working with the East.

"...structure the union such that the West would have equal voting status, 1 -1, as with the East..."

Well gosh! What could be more entirely "reasonable" than that? First; your time worked is supposedly worth far more than that of your east "fellow pilots",..Now? You feel your individual vote should count for more than any east person's as well? Seriously...Just what planet is that idea really from?

"But even then there is still the problem of trust and I'm not trying to rehash the tired old "integrity matters" argument,.." Not trying to rehash the tired old "integrity matters" would likely be very wise in this instance, especially after that last notion of arrogantly assuming west votes should..I suppose "naturally" count for more than those of the east...???

 

[hp_fa]

On May 13th USAPA issues the following comment. (I am limiting what I quote here to the first two paragrphs for brevity only. The third paragraph did not alter the substance of the first two.)

The Addington case ended today with the jury deciding that USAPA failed in its duty to fairly represent all of its members. Today’s decision, while disappointing, was not unexpected. Since we were required to argue our case with limited time and evidence and were hamstrung by questionable rulings and incorrect instructions, USAPA, quite literally, fought this battle with both hands tied behind its back. Given the circumstances, we have a hard time accepting the idea that we encountered truly unbiased impartiality. Although this is a setback, we are very confident that the errors of law we encountered in this venue will be corrected.

The 9th Circuit Court of Appeals and, if necessary, the United States Supreme Court, are the appropriate places for the law to be truly vetted. While USAPA would have, of course, preferred to prevail in the current setting (allowing the pilot group to come together and work towards an improved contract), we fully expected and planned for this contingency. Again, given the facts of law, we are very confident of our ability to prevail eventually, in proving the absolute right of a union to bargain over the complete terms of its members’ working agreement. Having so planned, our legal team is already working on an expedited appeal and stay of any proposed injunctive relief.

Now what would have happened if, perhaps, they had said the following?

---------------------

"The Addington case ended today with the jury deciding that USAPA failed in its duty to fairly represent all of its members. While we are disappointed that we did not prevail in this litigation we must consider the ramifications of this decision both in a legal and a practical sense. As your elected representatives it is our duty to look at this matter in both strategic and in tactical terms, especially if we are to move on and negotiate a fair and reasonable contract for all the pilots we represent. Accordingly we wish to solicit the opinions of our members while we take whatever legal remedies are available to us in order to preserve our right to appeal to the Ninth Circuit of the Court of Appeals.

If we proceed with the appeal it will likely take approximately one year to get a full ruling for the Court of Appeals. In the meantime we need to continue to represent our members and soliciting their opinions on how we proceed is important to providing the representation our members deserve. Accordingly we are soliciting our members feedback on their opinions on this unfortunate turn of events and how they wish USAPA to proceed in the foreseeable future in order to best move forward as a unified workforce in these uncertain times."

---------------------

Now I ask, what would have happened had USAPA put out a release similar to what I drafted in all of ten minutes versus the language that they chose to use? My point is simply that instead of fanning the embers of the fire perhaps they could of tried using a bit of Halon and looked for alternatives.

 

[prechilill]

Idiot that I am, I had hoped the judge, in all his wisdom, could find some middle ground to get us moving forward again.

Nicolau is the middle ground, you guys just wanted the whole pie right from the beginning so it is hard for you to see it.

 

[ClueByFour]

For those who might have missed it the first time = Enough's ENOUGH!!!! ..and this Nic obscenity's far past too much, regardless of whatever it takes to oppose it.

It is apparently easier than I thought to separate a fool from his money.

It costs a lot to appeal to the 9th Circus and lose. That means you also pay the AOL legal fees. And when SCOTUS won't hear it, you are right back were cooler heads said you'd be two years ago, and a couple of million poorer.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

On May 13th USAPA issues the following comment. (I am limiting what I quote here to the first two paragrphs for brevity only. The third paragraph did not alter the substance of the first two.)



Now what would have happened if, perhaps, they had said the following?

---------------------

"The Addington case ended today with the jury deciding that USAPA failed in its duty to fairly represent all of its members. While we are disappointed that we did not prevail in this litigation we must consider the ramifications of this decision both in a legal and a practical sense. As your elected representatives it is our duty to look at this matter in both strategic and in tactical terms, especially if we are to move on and negotiate a fair and reasonable contract for all the pilots we represent. Accordingly we wish to solicit the opinions of our members while we take whatever legal remedies are available to us in order to preserve our right to appeal to the Ninth Circuit of the Court of Appeals.

If we proceed with the appeal it will likely take approximately one year to get a full ruling for the Court of Appeals. In the meantime we need to continue to represent our members and soliciting their opinions on how we proceed is important to providing the representation our members deserve. Accordingly we are soliciting our members feedback on their opinions on this unfortunate turn of events and how they wish USAPA to proceed in the foreseeable future in order to best move forward as a unified workforce in these uncertain times."

---------------------

Now I ask, what would have happened had USAPA put out a release similar to what I drafted in all of ten minutes versus the language that they chose to use? My point is simply that instead of fanning the embers of the fire perhaps they could of tried using a bit of Halon and looked for alternatives.

Usapa was formed for one reason and one reason only, as a vehicle to completely disenfranchise the west. Period. We can all see the elephant in the room by now, can't we?

 

[wopr21]

Nicolau is the middle ground, you guys just wanted the whole pie right from the beginning so it is hard for you to see it.

Did you see that you get the whole pie at the end.

 

[hp_fa]

Usapa was formed for one reason and one reason only, as a vehicle to completely disenfranchise the west. Period. We can all see the elephant in the room by now, can't we?

What elephant?