US Pilots Labor Thread 5/13-19--NO PERSONAL REMARKS

[exB717Flyer]

I know HP FA already spoke knowledgably about this but it bears repeating for all who are confused. The judge is allowed to form an opinion based on the evidence. Very clearly in this case Judge Wake found fault in the defendant's legal arguments and he's absolutely within his right to instruct the jury as such. That's not being impartial or biased. As HP FA wrote only if Wake had it in for the East prior to the suit could he be guilty of bias. Mr. Cleary's message basically says he knows the law better than Wake. Does anybody really believe him?

 

[aquagreen73s]

Ok, while I educate myself how about not dodging the question. If the 9th district overturns the decision, do you still laud our legal system as the best ever or does that sentiment only apply when the courts agree with you?

District Courts are the trial courts, Circuit Courts are the appellate courts.

Yes...but the liklihood of any reversible error being found is in the neighborhood of a meteor hitting the Earth tomorrow and wiping out civilization as we know it. But, if that did happen and Seman gets a second bite at the apple, then that would be that and we'd just go into court and do it again. In any case, a preoccupation over the occurrence of an event that has infinitesimally small probabilities of happening is pointless. We'd be much better off looking ahead and seeing what can be done about improving the quality of life for all US Airways pilots.

 

[Nicstolemyjob]

Dude, you're whining quite a bit about the 190 thing. You just made a wordy post about how bad things are for you at $48 an hour, remember? I think you need to either quit whining or quit your job if it bothers you so much. Just some advice.

And I may. For the record, I was objecting to being accused of choosing to recall to the 190, and then complain about it. That was not the case. We were recalled to group 2 aircraft, (many gave up 6 figure incomes for that) and then displaced to the very aircraft we could have passed on indefinitely. And for that, I'm upset with the company for not at least pay-protecting us. The feeling of "bait and switch" is rampant over this issue. I don't blame the west for this, never did.

No more whining outta me, those west pilots who get offered their one and only recall to the east on the 190 will understand very quickly. THEY will at least know what they are recalling into...we did not.

 

[tazz]

Yes, I read Tigers post, and I know he's furloughed...(perfectly legally, by the way) I also submit that if our boy Dougie announces a merger tomorrow with Virgin America, Tiger goes to the bottom below guys hired last week at Virgin. Sound about right? Sound fair? I say it does NOT sound fair to Tiger, just as it was not fair to me. But, Nic doesn't see it that way, does he. The system that Nic produced is flawed under every union principle of seniority. (thanks to ALPA)
I am not picking on Tiger, I'm using him as a furloughed example...just as I was. Believe this: there are guys who were displaced to the 190 that would PREFER to be furloughed, at least then they could go overseas on a contract and pay their bills. The condition of being stuck on the 190 with a family and mortgage is impossible...slow financial death, while working your 85 hour line, and filing for bankruptcy....

Sure, come on out to the 190...you'll love it.

Understand this. Your union lost a DFR this week. They attempted to subvert the law. The Nicolau list is here to stay. Should we merge tomorrow a fair arbitrator would know this and place Tiger in his rightful position on a subsequent list whether he is currently (unfairly) furloughed or not. It is again, you who will be on the bottom as it should be. Try to keep up with what has been going on for the past few years. You are very fortunate to be working right now yet you whine about it as if it were a curse. If you hate the 190 so much and your situation is so dire then be proactive and do something for yourself to make your life better. Move on. Waiting for your union to continue subverting the law in order to further your interests is just plain wrong.

 

[Tiger 1050]

You don't need help with that. You have a basic understanding of where it is right now. Look at my post a few minutes ago if that helps.

Thanks! I am not sure I have any real understanding. Maybe treading water wildly while keeping my lips above the water line...

 

[psw737]

Yes, I read Tigers post, and I know he's furloughed...(perfectly legally, by the way) I also submit that if our boy Dougie announces a merger tomorrow with Virgin America, Tiger goes to the bottom below guys hired last week at Virgin. Sound about right? Sound fair? I say it does NOT sound fair to Tiger, just as it was not fair to me. But, Nic doesn't see it that way, does he. The system that Nic produced is flawed under every union principle of seniority. (thanks to ALPA)
I am not picking on Tiger, I'm using him as a furloughed example...just as I was. Believe this: there are guys who were displaced to the 190 that would PREFER to be furloughed, at least then they could go overseas on a contract and pay their bills. The condition of being stuck on the 190 with a family and mortgage is impossible...slow financial death, while working your 85 hour line, and filing for bankruptcy....

Sure, come on out to the 190...you'll love it.

As I am one of our furloughed pilots it makes me sick when I hear guys would rather be furloughed than still have their job. People who feel that way should just god damn quit, life is too short. Not everyone is able to go overseas and take a job, if I were able to be recalled tomorrow to the 190 I would take it and be very gracious of the fact that I have a job. This is a bad time to be furloughed, one of the worst that I can remember. There are very few flying jobs here in the U.S. right now. I just hope for the sake of the 220+ of us that are on furlough that this pilot group can come up with a solution to this mess, if not we will probrably remain kicked to the curb indefinitely.

 

[aquagreen73s]

And I may. For the record, I was objecting to being accused of choosing to recall to the 190, and then complain about it. That was not the case. We were recalled to group 2 aircraft, (many gave up 6 figure incomes for that) and then displaced to the very aircraft we could have passed on indefinitely. And for that, I'm upset with the company for not at least pay-protecting us. The feeling of "bait and switch" is rampant over this issue. I don't blame the west for this, never did.

Wow...how magnanimous of you.

No more whining outta me, those west pilots who get offered their one and only recall to the east on the 190 will understand very quickly. THEY will at least know what they are recalling into...we did not.

The problem with your reasoning is that you are missing the bigger picture. Your union has been completely unsuccessful in circumventing a binding arbitration. Now the Nic is about to be cemeted into permanency in a way that no other seniority lists have: with an order from a federal judge. This list is the product itself of an arbitration that was understood and agreed to be binding on all parties. Finally, your handle indicates your dissatisfaction with that arbitration. That's fine, but there comes a point where people have to take responsibility for their actions (or those of their agents, in our case both merger committees), and play the cards that are dealt. To do otherwise is futile.

If you think things are bad now for you, just wait. USAPA offered a brief vacation from reality, but now the bill is coming due and it will be paid in full.

 

[Elevation]

In regards to the Damages portion of this case in August, will USAPA be requesting a jury or bench decision or has it been decided? It seems to me that a jury is generally is more liberal with damages ($$$), while the bench more conservative($). But USAPA has been insulting the Judge in all the media reports so maybe not a great idea to go with Wake, so my guess is they are going with the jury...again.

 

[EastUS]

As bad as it is, the Nic was wrong, it still is, and even YOU know it...you're just hitting the wall.

Take a walk in MY E-190 shoes...$48/hour. (Tiger1050, why don't you come on out to PHL for $48/hour on the E9?)

We appeal, and we run seperate ops until this gets fixed. I am FAR from alone in this regard.

"I am FAR from alone in this regard." For what it's worth = I promise you that much is most certainly true. I believe that most of us enjoying the left seat are completely behind you in this.

"We appeal, and we run seperate ops until this gets fixed." Indeed, or Hell freezes over as far as I'm concerned....Enough's ENOUGH!!!! My vote goes that way as well, and I feel the vast majority will also. There's a a lot more at stake here than just money.

For those who might have missed it the first time = Enough's ENOUGH!!!! ..and this Nic obscenity's far past too much, regardless of whatever it takes to oppose it.

 

[cleardirect]

And I may. For the record, I was objecting to being accused of choosing to recall to the 190, and then complain about it. That was not the case. We were recalled to group 2 aircraft, (many gave up 6 figure incomes for that) and then displaced to the very aircraft we could have passed on indefinitely. And for that, I'm upset with the company for not at least pay-protecting us. The feeling of "bait and switch" is rampant over this issue. I don't blame the west for this, never did.

No more whining outta me, those west pilots who get offered their one and only recall to the east on the 190 will understand very quickly. THEY will at least know what they are recalling into...we did not.

I have heard this tale many times. What great jobs all of you had that you gave up, to come back to the premier airline in the county. Yet what is the first thing that many do? Complain and blame.

I really have to question the decision making ability of someone that claims to give up a 6 figure income to take a poverty wage job. Flying is a good gig but. At 6 figures you can take care of your family and if the urge hits. Go rent an airplane and zip around the skies actually flying instead of cruising on autopilot.

For some reason I am having a hard time believing the stories. Could it be that Wal-Mart or home depot really did not pay 6 figures.

 

[aquagreen73s]

In regards to the Damages portion of this case in August, will USAPA be requesting a jury or bench decision or has it been decided? It seems to me that a jury is generally is more liberal with damages ($$$), while the bench more conservative($). But USAPA has been insulting the Judge in all the media reports so maybe not a great idea to go with Wake, so my guess is they are going with the jury...again.

Damages = money. Remedies = equity (which rarely involve $ except in cases of restitution...that isn't applicable here.) So, what is going to happen on Wednesday is that Judge Wake will use his equitable powers to stop the harm being perpetrated by the defendants against the plaintiff class and he'll do that with his pen. Orders will issue directing parties to act in certain ways. Think of a restraining order, because that's basically what is coming on Wednesday. Now, the issue that none of us know is how reaching that order(s) will be. We'll see. Bottom line is that the Nic will stick and any act to undermine or dilute it will be contemptible.

The damages will require a jury trial but not for liability again; that's already been determined and we know the answer there. Liability was the hurdle. The proofs are much easier from here on out.

 

[EastUS]

Sadly I feel (JMHO) the 9th Circuit will shoot this down and you'll be left with more insane promises of the Supreme Court....

As opposed to completely selling out all the people I fly with? = Works for me. What's the west's expected time line for all that to happen? Is there any actual reason the west has for assuming it couldn't/wouldn't go that far? I don't know that the Supreme Court wouldn't be quite happy to eventually hear this case, if that's what it takes here. Do you know otherwise?

 

[electricjet98]

THERE ARE CURRENTLY

142

AMERICA WEST PILOTS

ON FURLOUGH


"THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Omitting the caption, we the jury, duly empaneled and sworn in the above-entitled matter, find as follows: On the plaintiff class's claim for breach of duty of fair representation against defendant USAPA, in favor of plaintiffs."

Fellow America West pilots,

Following two full weeks of testimony, evidence, and legal arguments, it took a jury of nine U.S. citizens less than 2 hours to unanimously conclude that USAPA breached its federal duty to fairly represent all 1800 America West pilots by intentionally and maliciously disregarding a final and binding arbitration award. The verdict was read at approximately 1030 am this past Wednesday, May 13th, 2009 to a courtroom filled with America West pilots from every part of our seniority list. Tears of joy and sighs of relief quickly consumed the gallery (and even some of the Leonidas attorneys) after the clerk read the jury's verdict into the record. Please visit www.cactuspilot.org for more information about the case.

Although the remedy and damages have yet to be determined (as of the writing of this email), this verdict is an important moral victory for the America West pilots, and it's significance should not be downplayed. Our pilot group responded to a malicious and underhanded attack on our careers by remaining focused, resolved, and unwavering. Unprecedented AWA unity got us to where we are today, and that same spirit will continue to successfully guide us through this dark period.

Of course, we would definitely not be where we are today without the selfless actions of the Leonidas founders Eric Ferguson and Jeff Koontz, the plaintiffs Don Addington, John Bostic, Mark Burman, AC Iranpour, Roger Velez, and Steve Wargocki, and control group members Patrick O'Neil and Brian Stockdell (we apologize if we missed anybody). We thank these gentlemen and their families for the sacrifices they've made over the past year, fighting an uphill battle to make this verdict a reality for all of us. We would also like to thank Marty Harper and the legal team at Polsinelli Shugart for serving as our staunch legal advocates.

It is important to remember that this legal battle was fought entirely in the free time of those involved with the case, mostly from their kitchen tables, and with money that came in only as a result of aggressive fundraising efforts. Our opponents fought their battle with a steady, reliable stream of dues dollars, from a fully staffed and equipped union office, and with a compliment of volunteers on flight pay loss. USAPA claims that they fought this battle with both of their hands behind their backs; we beg to differ! USAPA definitely had the advantage.

Literally minutes after the verdict was announced, USAPA's Officers launched another "the world's not fair" campaign, this time going so far as to question the integrity of a federal judge and the federal court system. Just in case you're not keeping a tally, over the past two years, we have apparently encountered a senile arbitrator, a flawed merger policy, a biased judge, a tainted jury, and a federal court that disregards federal laws. Quite clearly, USAPA's leaders have begun the process of attempting to disburse blame away from those who are really responsible for failing to deliver on their promises.

Unfortunately, USAPA's current leadership has set a direction for the organization that ensures that the America West pilots will continue to require the assistance of the legal system to protect our interests. There are many areas other than seniority in which USAPA has attempted to disregard our rights:

· The Susie Arbitration - USAPA is attempting to collect dues/fees from PHX/LAS based pilots for a period in which union membership was not available to them. Following an attempt by USAPA to have 4 West pilots terminated for non-payment of dues during that period, the company sustained protests filed by these 4 pilots. USAPA appealed the decision in one of those cases, FO Susie Stegmuller, to an arbitrator. If the arbitrator sustains the company's decision, PHX/LAS pilots will not be liable for dues/fees for the period prior to December 10, 2008.

· The Presidential Election - USAPA deliberately excluded a West pilot from the election ballot, violating that pilot's federal rights as a union member, as well as in violation of other federal statutes. Although USAPA did voluntarily re-run the election, they did so without providing the opportunity for other candidates to run. Another election protest has been filed.

· Constitutional violations - We have documented at least a handful of examples where USAPA violated its own constitution. The most egregious of those violations took place when USAPA adopted an unwritten policy that permits East pilots to vote on changes to the West CBA, and vice-versa.

· Repeated violations of the rights of union members (including our elected representatives) - USAPA has engaged in a number of documented acts to restrict and inhibit the LMRDA rights of West USAPA members, including deliberately restricting communications by duly elected representatives.

It is entirely likely that this trial may not be USAPA's only trip out to Arizona to explain their behavior to a federal judge and jury. We should all be prepared to support additional initiatives as necessary.

We would like to complete this update by once again asking all AWA pilots to consider USAPA membership as a viable option to protect our interests. The most offensive part of USAPA membership - the "date of hire" Constitutional provision - has effectively been neutered by the verdict. USAPA will be our bargaining agent for the foreseeable future, and we must exert our maximum influence on the organization. Expect to see another update about this important topic in the next few days.

In solidarity,

AWAPPA

 

[prechilill]

There are very few flying jobs here in the U.S. right now. I just hope for the sake of the 220+ of us that are on furlough that this pilot group can come up with a solution to this mess, if not we will probrably remain kicked to the curb indefinitely.

We are all in this boat together. Maybe one day we can all row together. Cleary's latest message is truly disappointing and I hope cooler heads can prevail out east.

 

[electricjet98]

Define "wins on appeal"? If the 9th Circuit does overturn anything the case will be reversed and remanded back to the trial court for any proceedings in conjunction with their ruling. The case won't go away, it just goes back to the trial court for more issues and then can potentially be appealed again.

I think you may have mentioned this before, but just for my own understanding:

1) Is it possible for the appelate court to accept the appeal just for the intention of fully understanding the case prior to accepting the results and let it stand as future 9th Circuit precedent?

2) Do you (or anyone else) have the schedult/timeline for the damages court session?