US Pilots Labor Thread 5/13-19--NO PERSONAL REMARKS

[hp_fa]

Bottom line is that the Nic will stick and any act to undermine or dilute it will be contemptible.

For you non-lawyers out there, I believe Aqua's use of the word "contemptible" was in the legal sense, as in any failure to act in accordance with whatever Order the Court issues will be grounds for an Order to Show Cause re:Contempt. Aqua did not, I believe, mean contemptible as in the common language understanding of the word.

 

[aquagreen73s]

For you non-lawyers out there, I believe Aqua's use of the word "contemptible" was in the legal sense, as in any failure to act in accordance with whatever Order the Court issues will be grounds for an Order to Show Cause re:Contempt. Aqua did not, I believe, mean contemptible as in the common language understanding of the word.

Yes...thanks for clarifying that. I did intend the legal context of the word but now that you mention it, both definitions apply!

 

[EastUS]

We are all in this boat together.

That may well change. In any case; there's less than zero evidence of that actually being even the least bit true within any/all posted west sentiments or exhibited behaviors. There is no "together" around here. There's only one side aggressively pursuing a purely opportunistic assault on the other...a whole lot of self-righteous pom pom waving and exultation from that side..and then,. there's the actual majority of the pilot group that the west side's seeking complete advantage over. Why even bother with the utterly ridiculous sound bites ala; "together"..."time to move forward"/etc, ad nauseum? This mess is a far cry from being "over" and you know it.
You might wish to inform your west "leadership" that no amount of childish propaganda's going to change the circumstances in any way...and come to realize the truth of that yourselves as well.

 

[nic4us]

And I may. For the record, I was objecting to being accused of choosing to recall to the 190, and then complain about it. That was not the case. We were recalled to group 2 aircraft, (many gave up 6 figure incomes for that) and then displaced to the very aircraft we could have passed on indefinitely. And for that, I'm upset with the company for not at least pay-protecting us. The feeling of "bait and switch" is rampant over this issue. I don't blame the west for this, never did.

No more whining outta me, those west pilots who get offered their one and only recall to the east on the 190 will understand very quickly. THEY will at least know what they are recalling into...we did not.

The point is, you need to consider, very pragmatically, if the Nic might actually be your fastest track back to the group 2 aircraft to which you were recalled.

As you point out, the situation changed after your recall so there is always uncertainty. The situation will change as we move forward. If the company decides tomorrow that widebodies are coming to PHX, trust me, not only would east capture all east attrition in PHL, they would get the bonus attrition of the senior PHL folks heading for the desert, and you might find yourself in a position you had not expected so quickly.

You mentioned that Skiles had 800 West f/o's placed in front of him. He also had 140 group 2 aircraft added to the fleet. His options went up, not down. His situation, your situation,my situation, will continually have uncertainty, it is my opinion that it is better to face that uncertainty with more alternatives and that would require we bring down the seperate operations fencing we currently have.

This opens up one more issue. The next crew lunch will be beyond interesting. We really need a take on how the company is going to respond. If they decide to start making their decisions based on Nic, and I believe they will, the landscape of seperate ops is going to swing heavily in favor of the West.

One last thing before I go ride the light occasional moderate today, everyone take a deep breath and repeat after me......3 times......serenity now....okay enjoy your weekends and try to relax until we see the judges remedy.

 

[Elevation]

Damages = money. Remedies = equity (which rarely involve $ except in cases of restitution...that isn't applicable here.) So, what is going to happen on Wednesday is that Judge Wake will use his equitable powers to stop the harm being perpetrated by the defendants against the plaintiff class and he'll do that with his pen. Orders will issue directing parties to act in certain ways. Think of a restraining order, because that's basically what is coming on Wednesday. Now, the issue that none of us know is how reaching that order(s) will be. We'll see. Bottom line is that the Nic will stick and any act to undermine or dilute it will be contemptible.

The damages will require a jury trial but not for liability again; that's already been determined and we know the answer there. Liability was the hurdle. The proofs are much easier from here on out.

I know what's going on on Wednesday, I'm talking about the Damages portion in August. I read it could be a judge or jury decision, I'm assuming it's up to the defendant?

Another question I have is How will USAPA pay for a large judgment against them? Assessment of the members? Liability insurance?

 

[EastUS]

You mentioned that Skiles had 800 West f/o's placed in front of him. He also had 140 group 2 aircraft added to the fleet. His options went up, not down. His situation, your situation,my situation, will continually have uncertainty, it is my opinion that it is better to face that uncertainty with more alternatives and that would require we bring down the seperate operations fencing we currently have.

One last thing before I go ride the light occasional moderate today, everyone take a deep breath and repeat after me......3 times......serenity now....okay enjoy your weekends and try to relax until we see the judges remedy.

1) Those first observations are purely and parenthetically just more utterly ridiculous west propaganda. I mean honestly; show anyone where having 800 permanently placed above a person truly serves to advantage that person??? The very fact that the west is clearly chomping at the bit to end seperate ops tells the true story as to which side would obviously benefit.

2) Those last thoughts though...we can agree on

 

[aquagreen73s]

I know what's going on on Wednesday, I'm talking about the Damages portion in August. I read it could be a judge or jury decision, I'm assuming it's up to the defendant?

Another question I have is How will USAPA pay for a large judgment against them? Assessment of the members? Liability insurance?

Defendant's choice.

My understanding is this: it's difficult, if not impossible, for a union at a closed shop to become insolvent. Insolvency means debts exceeds assets with no practical ability to pay. It's tough to think of a union that has 3500 dues paying members on the East could ever be insolvent. What's more, damages claims are not generally dischargable in BK, but that is a segment of the law which is in its own universe and it's really irrelevant to this case. There is simply no way USAPA could ever get into a BK such that the BK would allow them to evade paying a damages claim. Any thoughts that BK is the ultimate weapon against the West is delusional.

USAPA has no liability insurance and that means Cleary and gang are standing naked and exposed. For the life of me, I will never understand how and why the Grand Bradford Experiment didn't at least include a basic level of liability protection. That would have been a very elementary part of the legal advice which Seham should have gotten in writing as he was advising the angry cranberry club while they were organizing. Now, after a jury verdict, there is no chance for securing liability coverage.

This is a serious and dangerous game that USAPA is now playing, and they're gambling with the careers of every pilot, East and West. In the end, the Nic will stick and whatever form US Airways takes in the coming shakeout, the Nic will be the basis for forging the new seniority list with whomever we combine.

 

[hp_fa]

My answer to both of your questions would be "I don't know".

As of now I don't know if either party prefers a jury to hear damages or whether they feel more comfortable allowing the Court to use its jurisprudence to decide that issue. USAPA may actually prefer that question to go before the Court because, while they have lost the liability trial, the Judge has been careful about overextending the reach of the Court when such an action would have been unfair to USAPA. So, from my perspective, who hears the damages issue is currently an open question.

As for the payment of any damages I don't know if USAPA has an applicable insurance policy, or whether any such insurance would cover any judgment in this case. If such a policy was in force then I would assume that it would have a large deductable and that the insurer would also claim that a significant portion of the damages accrued while the East was represented by the East MEC and also ALPA National. ALPA National's carrier would likely claim that any alleged damages could not be attributable to ALPA National since it did everything required by its constitution, by-laws and ALPA merger policy. (The only possible exception would be whether ALPA National delayed action beyond when it should have otherwise taken action, and I have not seen any claim that it actually exceeded any such time frame for presenting the Nicolau list to the Company.) The East MEC is a different matter. However I don't know whether it had applicable insurance (perhaps under ALPA's master policy?) nor, if it had applicable insurance, what the terms of that insurance would be in connection with this matter.

In plain language, a mess could occur in connection with the liability and degree of liability for any awarded damages among the insurers and those they insured under any such policies. That could lead to future litigation as to liability for payment of the actual awarded damages.

Whether USAPA would make a special assessment is a question that USAPA would need to address. Judge Wake has made comments that he knows it would be counter-productive to have damages in a degree that would bankrupt USAPA, so in that context again a bench trial on damages might be advantageous to USAPA.

We will just need to see how the BPR and its counsel proceed. Of course, rather than waiting for another brick to fall from the sky, the membership may want to share their thoughts with the BPR on how they would like their elected representatives to proceed in this matter.

 

[A320 Driver]

The point is, you need to consider, very pragmatically, if the Nic might actually be your fastest track back to the group 2 aircraft to which you were recalled.

As you point out, the situation changed after your recall so there is always uncertainty. The situation will change as we move forward. If the company decides tomorrow that widebodies are coming to PHX, trust me, not only would east capture all east attrition in PHL, they would get the bonus attrition of the senior PHL folks heading for the desert, and you might find yourself in a position you had not expected so quickly.

You mentioned that Skiles had 800 West f/o's placed in front of him. He also had 140 group 2 aircraft added to the fleet. His options went up, not down. His situation, your situation,my situation, will continually have uncertainty, it is my opinion that it is better to face that uncertainty with more alternatives and that would require we bring down the seperate operations fencing we currently have.

This opens up one more issue. The next crew lunch will be beyond interesting. We really need a take on how the company is going to respond. If they decide to start making their decisions based on Nic, and I believe they will, the landscape of seperate ops is going to swing heavily in favor of the West.

One last thing before I go ride the light occasional moderate today, everyone take a deep breath and repeat after me......3 times......serenity now....okay enjoy your weekends and try to relax until we see the judges remedy.

Idiot that I am, I had hoped the judge, in all his wisdom, could find some middle ground to get us moving forward again. Unfortunantly, I don't think that will happen and that is not what West wants anyway (most on this board). They seem to be out for blood now. The war will go on and management will win, since they have NO vested interest in the company's future. Maybe they will put A330s in PHX. I was told that is why we put the big engines on the -200s and I wouldn't mind a change of scenery myself. I like PHX!

Guess we'll see how this all works out.

A320 Driver B)

 

[aquagreen73s]

Idiot that I am, I had hoped the judge, in all his wisdom, could find some middle ground to get us moving forward again. Unfortunantly, I don't think that will happen and that is not what West wants anyway (most on this board). They seem to be out for blood now. The war will go on and management will win, since they have NO vested interest in the company's future. Maybe they will put A330s in PHX. I was told that is why we put the big engines on the -200s and I wouldn't mind a change of scenery myself. I like PHX!

Guess we'll see how this all works out.

A320 Driver B)

I must say, your post is about the most offensive post that I've ever seen on this board.

First, the issue was USAPA's liability. We had a disagreement, you lost, it's over. Should we apply your logic to every victim of a civil wrong too? How about the rollover victims who recovered a fair amount of money from Ford? Should the judge just have taken the damages award and split it in half? Is that your twisted notion of closure?

Second, what's totally offensive is your suggestion that the west is now out for blood. Your union maliciously sued 24 West pilots in federal court. You and your union openly bragged about the pressure and dynamics harming the West. Do I need to go through and find your posts where you say things like "....better give something up, West, or else...USAPA is coming..."? You know you were right there in that camp and now that you've been reversed on the wrestling match and are now staring at the rafters, we in the west are now out for blood? No, actually it's all about finishing what you and your like started.

What you fail to admit is that this process is working itself out in the only way you and your like have wanted it to. We are all but mere pilots; electrons floating down a wire subject to forces we cannot alter. Doug is pulling the levers, but for here on our we in the west have you and your like contained so that the harm will stop. At least, the harm coming from your side is going to stop. That's what counts for us in the West as we have no control over the macro forces which are shaping this industry.

 

[Elevation]

As of now I don't know if either party prefers a jury to hear damages or whether they feel more comfortable allowing the Court to use its jurisprudence to decide that issue. USAPA may actually prefer that question to go before the Court because, while they have lost the liability trial, the Judge has been careful about overextending the reach of the Court when such an action would have been unfair to USAPA. So, from my perspective, who hears the damages issue is currently an open question.

It will be interesting to hear USAPA request Judge Wake to handle the damages since they are accusing him of bias.

Sounds like AOL will be requesting damages north of 25 million from what I hear.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Sounds like AOL will be requesting damages north of 25 million from what I hear.

That is incorrect. Damages are either compensatory or punitive, and there is a big difference as to the award of each. An award of $25million would clearly be in the punitive category and puntive $$ are not on the table, nor should they be.

 

[hp_fa]

Idiot that I am, I had hoped the judge, in all his wisdom, could find some middle ground to get us moving forward again. Unfortunantly, I don't think that will happen and that is not what West wants anyway (most on this board).

I suspect that quite a few East pilots were hoping for the same and I don't intend for that to sound mean-spirited.

It would have been totally extra-judicial for the Court to have sought a middle ground in litigation. That would have had the effect of giving East another bite at the apple in terms of a seniority integration list. The time for negotiating or mediating was prior to an award actually being handed down. I have said from very early on that any court will be extremely reluctant to re-open any decision that the parties submitted to full and final arbitration because to do so, from a public policy perspective, would undermine the entire reason why parties arbitrate rather than litigate, absent any clear and convincing evidence that the arbitration procedure itself was unfair.

The single largest error in this entire episode, beginning in May, 2005, was the failure of the East MEC (via arbitration counsel) to modify their position in the arbitration despite the clear request by Mr. Nicolau for reconsideration of their position immediately prior to the arbitration panel beginning their deliberation of the matter. That was the last time that this freight train could effectively have been halted or re-routed from the crash scene.

 

[aquagreen73s]

The single largest error in this entire episode, beginning in May, 2005, was the failure of the East MEC (via arbitration counsel) to modify their position in the arbitration despite the clear request by Mr. Nicolau for reconsideration of their position immediately prior to the arbitration panel beginning their deliberation of the matter. That was the last time that this freight train could effectively have been halted or re-routed from the crash scene.

I agree. That's where the error chain began but it is also important to note the compounding of the problem by the subsequent actions as well. Carrying that same attitude into Wye River, openly bragging about the leverage they (the East) had at ALPA National (that was the basis for Stephan's argument to stay with ALPA), voting USAPA and the likes of Bradford and Cleary amounted to taking the odds of averting a disaster down to zero. But what we found last Wednesday buried in the wreckage is the Nic list, intact and reusable.

As a minority, the West was just along for the ride. I don't expect anything to change from within this pilot group (East and West). But, macro forces are at work and we are about to see the same sort of downsizing in the airline business as is happening now in the car business. So, the feasibility of waiting out the Nic through separate ops is about to hit the brick wall of reality.

 

[A320 Driver]

I suspect that quite a few East pilots were hoping for the same and I don't intend for that to sound mean-spirited.

It would have been totally extra-judicial for the Court to have sought a middle ground in litigation. That would have had the effect of giving East another bite at the apple in terms of a seniority integration list. The time for negotiating or mediating was prior to an award actually being handed down. I have said from very early on that any court will be extremely reluctant to re-open any decision that the parties submitted to full and final arbitration because to do so, from a public policy perspective, would undermine the entire reason why parties arbitrate rather than litigate, absent any clear and convincing evidence that the arbitration procedure itself was unfair.

The single largest error in this entire episode, beginning in May, 2005, was the failure of the East MEC (via arbitration counsel) to modify their position in the arbitration despite the clear request by Mr. Nicolau for reconsideration of their position immediately prior to the arbitration panel beginning their deliberation of the matter. That was the last time that this freight train could effectively have been halted or re-routed from the crash scene.

Agreed, and I didn't mean to sound mean-spirited either. Truth is, many pilots from this board want damages, money etc. What bothered me was after USAPA was voted in, West would not send reps to the BPR. Now, they can hide behind whatever fence they like, but the truth is, they wouldn't be part of the process. I am a USAPA member for one reason. I pay my dues and if I am so inclined, I can go to a meeting and throw down the BS flag. I don't agree with what they did in negotiations. I don't care for their leadership, but I pay my dues and have a right to vote. Many West guys paid that dues money to AWAPA or AOL. Fine, they won in court. USAPA was wrong to try to cram DOH down their throats. I don't agree with it, but I'm still part of the process.

I'm sorry I offended Aquagreen 737, was not my intention, but he'd love to get a check from the East guys, cash it and spend it. Won't win the war, won't stop it or slow it down. I see no future in any of this fighting. As I said before...the thing that bugged me the most about the Nic is his insinuation that I have no value. I believe that's wrong. We ticked him off when we wouldn't negotiate and he stuck it to us. No middle ground. Yeah, the top 517 went East, but what did anyone expect. We had a widebody operation and West didn't. Most of those pilots will be gone in the next few years anyway. Not so further down the list.


Out of breathe

A320 Driver B)