US Pilots Labor Thread 5/13-19--NO PERSONAL REMARKS

[hp_fa]

hp fa,

I had posted this earlier, but sometimes this board is a fast-moving place!


I think you may have mentioned this before, but just for my own understanding:

1) Is it possible for the appelate court to accept the appeal just for the intention of fully understanding the case prior to accepting the results and let it stand as future 9th Circuit precedent?

2) Do you (or anyone else) have the schedule/timeline for the damages court session this summer?

I'm sorry, I must have missed it and then overlooked your post this morning when I first looked at the board this morning.

For the first question I am trying to understand the question as framed. The included phrase "prior to accepting the results" is confusing me so can you explain that for me? If you exclude that phrase my response would be yes.

The second question is, as of now, easy. The Court indicated that it will schedule the damages portion for 8/18/09 - 8/21/09 with a possibility that it will also have time the preceeding week if, as the Court suspects, a currently scheduled case is resolved. The Court has also set an accelerated window for dispositive motions, which specifically includes motions for summary judgment , for complete briefing to the Court by June 12, 2009. (Defendant's Motion for Summary Judgment (full or partial) to be filed by 5/22/09, Plaintiffs' Response by 6/1/09 and Defendant's Reply by 6/12/09.)

Does that help?

 

[hp_fa]

Why would the union the presumes to be built "from the pilot up" (in other words on the backs of hard-working pilots) be opposed to putting the question of pursuing appeals to the membership as a referrendum?

Is USAPA afraid to take direction from it's constituents?

Under the circumstances that is both a good and valid question in light of the materials that USAPA's founders circulated back during the campaign for whether or not it would become the bargaining agent. I have a couple of thoughts that may, or may not, be true.

1. It is possible that Mr. Bradford resignation as president before Mr. Cleary's constitutional term of office was to constitutionally begin on July 1, 2009 (as he had promised during the formation of USAPA and becoming its first president) was a tactical move to distance himself, his views and his promises during the campaign to form a new bargaining agent and/or its conduct and decisions during that first year of being the bargaining agent.

2. It is possible that Mr. Cleary and/or the BPR do not currently accept the various premises that Mr. Bradford, and the people who formed USAPA, advocated at that time as being binding, and/or applicable, upon them now.

3. In my personal view the members of USAPA, even without a formal referendum or other form of vote being scheduled, have the absolute right and duty to contact their representatives and make their views known. It is furthermore my personal view that members who do not make their individual feelings known to their representatives are, by their silence, effectively supporting the actions (or non-actions) being taken by Mr. Cleary and the BPR as being synonymous with their own feelings on any various issues.

I know that my personal views may seem controversial, but it is my general feeling that within any context that representational voting and elections do not remove the obligation of the represented party to communicate with those who represent him or her to make their individual feelings and position known. This blanket statement includes government and other organizations (such as USAPA) where the represented party belongs to a group or organization in which the member belongs. In short, electing or re-electing a person does not in and by itself remove the member from responsibility for how the government or organization conducts itself in various affairs.

 

[boeingplt]

1. It is possible that Mr. Bradford resignation as president before Mr. Cleary's constitutional term of office was to constitutionally begin on July 1, 2009 (as he had promised during the formation of USAPA and becoming its first president) was a tactical move to distance himself, his views and his promises during the campaign to form a new bargaining agent and/or its conduct and decisions during that first year of being the bargaining agent.

I don't suspect that you have access to USAPA's constitution but the proviso section states that the term of office for the Interim President, Vice President, Secretary treasurer and executive Vice President shall be for a period no longer than 12 months after the certification, in this case the terms ended April 17 2009.

I think we all are spring loaded to see wingtips sticking out from behind all the curtains but most times there is a simple explanation.

 

[BoeingBoy]

I think we all are spring loaded to see wingtips sticking out from behind all the curtains but most times there is a simple explanation.

Except that I raised the same point a few weeks ago and was quickly corrected by a USAPA officer who said that the representation election also served as the initial officer election and that ... let me get the exact quote... "Jim, there have never been any 'interim' Officers. Never."

Jim

 

[boeingplt]

Except that I raised the same point a few weeks ago and was quickly corrected by a USAPA officer who said that the representation election also served as the initial officer election and that ... let me get the exact quote... "Jim, there have never been any 'interim' Officers. Never."

Jim

Can't speak to your conversation but here is the applicable section.


38
PROVISOS
THE FOLLOWING PROVISIONS ARE SOLELY FOR THE PURPOSE OF TRANSITIONING TO THE PERMANENT
REPRESENTATIONAL STRUCTURE CONTEMPLATED BY THIS CONSTITUTION AND BYLAWS AND SHALL REMAIN
IN EFFECT ONLY FOR THE PERIOD OF TIME STATED IN EACH PROVISION TO COMPLETE THE ACTIONS
CONTEMPLATED THEREIN.

A. Notwithstanding the provisions of Article III, Section 7, Paragraph A, upon certification
of the Association by the National Mediation Board as the exclusive bargaining
representative of the pilots employed by U. S. Airways, Inc., the term of office for the
interim President, Vice President, Secretary-Treasurer and Executive Vice President shall
be for no longer than a period of twelve (12) months following such certification.
During such period of time, elections shall be held for those position named above.

B. Notwithstanding the provisions of Article V, Section 4, Paragraph B, upon certification of
the Association by the National Mediation Board as the exclusive bargaining
representative of the pilots employed by U. S. Airways, Inc., the term of office for the
interim Domicile Officers shall be from the date of certification through:

1. Category A: March 31, 2009. The term of office thereafter shall be in accordance
with Article IV, Section 4, Paragraph B. 1.

2. Category B: September 30, 2009. The term of office thereafter shall be in
accordance with Article IV, Section 4, Paragraph B. 2.

3. Category C: March 31, 2009. The following term shall run from April 1, 2009
through March 31, 2010. The term of office thereafter shall be in accordance with
Article IV, Section 4, Paragraph B. 3.

4. Category D: September 30, 2009. The following term shall run from October 1, 2009
through September 30, 2010. The term of office thereafter shall be in accordance
with Article IV, Section 4, Paragraph B. 4.

C. To establish an initial Appeal Board, the Board of Pilot Representatives shall select three
(3) members, whose term thereafter shall be in accordance with that described in
Article VI.

This USAPA Constitution and Bylaws has been approved and made effective this ___
day of _______________, 20__



_______________________________ - _______________________________
President Secretary-Treasurer

 

[flybynite]

What could happen with the damages part? What would it entail?

 

[hp_fa]

What could happen with the damages part? What would it entail?

That is both an easy and a hard question.

The easy part is that the damages part of the trial will establish the what the actual losses incurred by plaintiffs are as well as identifying those damages. There is also a likelihood that the class status will allow any affected West pilot to submit damages under the class status. I can't identify this any better than this at this time pending further proceedings in the case.

The hard part of the question is the degree of damage suffered by each pilot, identifying that damage and quantifying that damage. Potentially there will be some busy CPA's between now and August.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Can't speak to your conversation but here is the applicable section.

Yes, that's the part I was using when I made the same point you did about elections to replace interim officers. Apparently it doesn't apply since there were no interim officers. As it was explained to me the representational election, in addition to deciding which organization would be CBA, was also a vote on the USAPA C&B/L's and officers.

Jim

 

[Dog Wonder]

The longer East pilots keep the airline in limbo, the longer they keep their seniority.

 

[hp_fa]

The longer East pilots keep the airline in limbo, the longer they keep their seniority.

The longer the East pilots keep the airline in limbo the longer it is until they get a negotiated pay raise.

I can just imagine the following hypothetical situation.

The Company and USAPA are negotiating a contract and the Company appears to be dragging their heels. USAPA's negotiator claims that the Company is not acting in good faith and the head Company negotiator breaks out laughing and says 'are you seriously accusing us of that when your union was found to have committed a DFR less than 13 months after becoming the bargaining representative'?

 

[flybynite]

Interesting, however, the union requested a facilitator from the NMB and the company rejected that proposal. So I don't think anyone can claim the union's been dragging their feet.

 

[nostradamus]

Amazing. Since the beginning of America West pilots employment, in 1983, they were the lowest paid pilots in the industry for 20 plus years. When the America West pilots were finally given a pay raise and benefits just before the Us Airways merger (what a coincidence by the way) they are now concerned about the pay and quality of life of the pilot profession.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Interesting, however, the union requested a facilitator from the NMB and the company rejected that proposal. So I don't think anyone can claim the union's been dragging their feet.

Except that the company has requested a mediator per the transition agreement, which specifies a "mediator to facilitate negotiations."

Jim

 

[AWE_SHUCKS]

I suspect that quite a few East pilots were hoping for the same and I don't intend for that to sound mean-spirited.

The single largest error in this entire episode, beginning in May, 2005, was the failure of the East MEC (via arbitration counsel) to modify their position in the arbitration despite the clear request by Mr. Nicolau for reconsideration of their position immediately prior to the arbitration panel beginning their deliberation of the matter. That was the last time that this freight train could effectively have been halted or re-routed from the crash scene.

I'm confused, are you saying that if the east had been reasonable in nic's eyes, he would have given them a better deal, but they were not, so he gave them a different deal? How does either sides position effect an arbitrators solution? Did he punish the east for being unreasonable? If the east had asked for DOH and all of the west's per diem for 10 years would nic have been even worse? Do you guys just make this s@#$ up?

 

[nycbusdriver]

Yes, that's the part I was using when I made the same point you did about elections to replace interim officers. Apparently it doesn't apply since there were no interim officers. As it was explained to me the representational election, in addition to deciding which organization would be CBA, was also a vote on the USAPA C&B/L's and officers.

Jim

And any USAPA officer, interim or otherwise, owes you any explanation, correct or otherwise, why?

Your standing with USAPA is....?

Your standing with USAirways is....?