US Pilots Labor Thread 5/13-19--NO PERSONAL REMARKS

[aquagreen73s]

Pretty selfish attitude that the entire company and merger should be put on hold so YOU can somehow improve your poor choice. Separate ops until you feel better.

I agree, but the flaw in the dealy tactic now is that the future will not be static. Much is about to change and Doug now has the perfect excuse as to why this merger is not complete. In the meantime, he has leverage over pilots that any of the notorious airline CEOs in the past could only dream of. He'll be able to put together any kind of deal he wants now and . . .any deal I can think of involves a pilot group larger than East and West.

It'll be interesting to take a peek at his board in a year and see what the discussion will be about. I bet you won't be hearing anything about the vaunted appeal.

USAPA's bad conduct was serious enough to make the case for the West, but the real winner in all of this is Parker. For the West, at least the Nic sticks. Not all that great, but it's better than letting a gang of thugs steal our seniority.

 

[Nicstolemyjob]

No offense but how long have you been in this industry? C'mon man you know as well as anyone there is no such guarantees in the crazy biz. NOBODY is ever guaranteed upgrade.
Hey I may be in your shoes. I am furloughed now with 5 yrs LOS and if we merge it may not mean squat. The trick is to move on if you have a chance. Do what's best for you and your family. Since it's obvious you chose to return stop blaming everyone else for all this mess and man up. This was YOUR choice.


* In the industry for 20 years...you?



Ha! Funny thing is it will probably come down to that. I may have to evaluate what my options are at the time. Considering my location I probably would turn it down unless it was on the west coast. I just don't believe this job is worth that kinda commute.

Also we could probably fix those E190 rates but as long as you and the others out east stifle any real progress then that's just something you're gonna have to live with. Talk to Snoop. He'll tell ya there is a huge snapback coming regarding pay rates. But then he seems to regurgitate all the rhetoric that spews from USAPA's leadership. Considering their track record so far, do you believe them?

* Fixing 190 rates will likely require a joint contract and totally screwing the 23-25 year guys out east by putting 800 west pilots ahead of them for the rest of their careers Jeff Skiles, for example

* The 190 is not part of LOA93, so if there is a "snapback" the 190 is not covered, Captains are actually bidding off it for this purpose, and going back to 76 FO.

Maybe so. But maybe, I admit I am not totally sure, because this is injunctive relief the order stands until such time the 9th circuit stays the order or they remand it back to Judge Wake's court. HP HELP! Anyhow I wouldn't bank on your separate ops until we know exactly what the Judge's remedy is. Ya never know he may give you what you want... But you'll be living on those wages until you can bid off the 190. Kinda damned if you do damned if you don't huh?

Yup

 

[Tiger 1050]

Yes, I read Tigers post, and I know he's furloughed...(perfectly legally, by the way) I also submit that if our boy Dougie announces a merger tomorrow with Virgin America, Tiger goes to the bottom below guys hired last week at Virgin. Sound about right? Sound fair? I say it does NOT sound fair to Tiger, just as it was not fair to me. But, Nic doesn't see it that way, does he. The system that Nic produced is flawed under every union principle of seniority. (thanks to ALPA)
I am not picking on Tiger, I'm using him as a furloughed example...just as I was. Believe this: there are guys who were displaced to the 190 that would PREFER to be furloughed, at least then they could go overseas on a contract and pay their bills. The condition of being stuck on the 190 with a family and mortgage is impossible...slow financial death, while working your 85 hour line, and filing for bankruptcy....

Sure, come on out to the 190...you'll love it.

In all honesty should such a transaction occur, yeah I'd be unhappy. But I am not a hypocrite and I would stand by what I know to be fair. If I am furloughed then there, in my mind, is never a reason that I should surpass another who is working on any merged list. Simple reason is that they had no influence on my status here at LCC. Why is it that I should negatively influence their situation. The only people I blame in your situation are the executives. They do this without any regard for the folks that make their comanies run.

Bottom line: It's my choice to return. If I chose to return then I must live with MY choice.

 

[Nicstolemyjob]

I don’t mean to belittle your plight. However! Where there tears on your keyboard when you wrote this? Typical attitude from the east. Whine, complain, it must be someone else’s fault that you find yourself in this position. Blame everyone but yourself.

You said that you were on furlough at the time. When you accepted recall you knew what the Nicolau list was and where you sat on it. You knew that you were being recalled into the 190 and I believe that you had the right to refuse the recall. You knew the pay rates of the 190, $48 per hour. You also knew that those rates were locked for 10 years. That was going to be the rate you would work under.

With all of that information YOU made a choice. You decided to return to US Airways under those conditions. Now that you are unable to change the circumstances to your favor you expect some sympathy from the rest of the world. Slavery was abolished a long time ago. No one is forcing you to stay. If it is so unreasonable or difficult for you simply leave.

Find something that will make you happy and that you can accept.

Pretty selfish attitude that the entire company and merger should be put on hold so YOU can somehow improve your poor choice. Separate ops until you feel better.

Wrong....wrong...wrong. I'll temper my post since you may be unaware of this: I was flying as a J4J Captain making $80K for an express carrier. I was offered the 190 FO recall...we all passed, of course. Why? the pay. We were all given FINAL RECALL to NARROWBODY, and they hired to staff the 190.
Then they furloughed from the bottom (new hires) and we were all DISPLACED back down to the 190 with no pay protection....

so just stop with the "choices" lecture, I "chose" and was recalled to the Airbus...our labor-friendly management saw fit to screw us all over and dump us onto this plane.

Nothing personal, but don't blame me for my "bad choices" as though I chose the 190.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Nothing personal, but don't blame me for my "bad choices" as though I chose the 190.

Anyone with "20 years" in the industry should have realized that what happened to you was at least a possibility. Too many on the East side look at the most optimistic course of future events and see it as a guarantee under separate ops. Then they look at the most pessimistic course of future events under Nic and see it as cast in stone.

Jim

 

[Nicstolemyjob]

Anyone with "20 years" in the industry should have realized that what happened to you was at least a possibility. Too many on the East side look at the most optimistic course of future events and see it as a guarantee under separate ops. Then they look at the most pessimistic course of future events under Nic and see it as cast in stone.

Jim

Sure, Jim...and anyone with 20 years in this business knows that any flight may be your last...do you still go to work that day? Excuse me, but I'm having a chat with some west pilots, thank you.

 

[prechilill]

Wrong....wrong...wrong. I'll temper my post since you may be unaware of this: I was flying as a J4J Captain making $80K for an express carrier. I was offered the 190 FO recall...we all passed, of course. Why? the pay. We were all given FINAL RECALL to NARROWBODY, and they hired to staff the 190.
Then they furloughed from the bottom (new hires) and we were all DISPLACED back down to the 190 with no pay protection....

so just stop with the "choices" lecture, I "chose" and was recalled to the Airbus...our labor-friendly management saw fit to screw us all over and dump us onto this plane.

Nothing personal, but don't blame me for my "bad choices" as though I chose the 190.

Well, you may be furloughed again soon either through a court remedy of putting guys like Tiger in your place or the more likely continued downsizing as the economy continues to fade. So, take heart, you probably won't have to be crying and whining too much longer about having a job.

 

[hp_fa]

None really. I just wasn't expecting to hear it the first week of the trial from highly respected Judge Wake who, BTW, is supposed to be impartial. I'm no lawyer, been on jury duty a few times. Never heard a judge discussing remedies and damages before the verdict was even read. I'm not saying he is not a good judge or anything disparaging about the man...just odd to me, that's all.

In my opinion/experience it was an odd proceeding in that it was a hybrid DFR action that also included a bench trial on injunctive issues at the same time that the fact trial (jury trial) was ongoing. DFR's making it to the trial stage are flat-out rare. Bifurcated trials are uncommon to rare. Trials where both the jury and the judge are considering evidence (as opposed to the judge simply dealing with judicial evidenciary rulings and not being directly involved in actively considering factual issues) are uncommon to rare. All-in-all this was a very rare proceeding before a trial court.

As for the impartiality of the judge, can anyone here really say that that on September 4, 2008 (the day the Complaint was filed in federal court in Phoenix) that Judge Wake was partial to one party or another? If either party had thought so they should have filed a motion seeking recusal and/or re-assignment of the case to another judge. Absent that having happened I can't find any validity for the issue of impartiality.

Once contested matters were heard and considered by the Court from there the Court can rightfully build up a view of the evidence in the case and the parties. As more evidence comes before the court, in the form of motions containing some degree of evidence, affidavits, deposition transcripts and other things that constitute evidence, the court adds to its knowledge base of the case and its assessment of the case and the parties. So, just because a judge rules against a given party, perhaps repeatedly, doesn't mean the judge or the jury was biased or otherwise not impartial. Remember all the different law firms that were interviewed or consulted, both by the East MEC and Mr. Bradford, before they seemingly found an opinion that they found they liked for their fact pattern? It can probably be inferred that there were a lot of opinions of their legal position contrary to what they wanted to hear. Should it come as a surprise that neither the judge or jury didn't agree with the extreme position that East sought advance?

Finally, the issue of the jury trial and bench trial occurring together. The Court was concerned that it had a duty to rule one way or the other on Plaintiffs request for injunctive relief. Cases seeking injunctive relief are entitled to a priority status being heard, especially when the plaintiff is claiming that if an injunction were to not issue in a timely event that more harm would accrue because of any delay in granting the injunction. In this case the Court did not issue a preliminary injunction. (It ruled for the defense at that point.) The Court however did say that the Plaintiffs were entitled to a full hearing on their request for a permanent injunction in a timely manner and originally sought to have the trial in, as I recall, February 2009 on limited issues. However, as more issues arose, the case was delayed, class status was granted, it was made into a hybrid DFR case and also bifurcated to the jury on liability only. In the meantime, as a housekeeping matter, the Court clearly and often discussed that the Court had very limited time to deal with this case because of the practicality of judicial calendars.

So, the judge used his time to run both a jury trial and a bench trial at the same time. He said many, many times that if a defense verdict were to brought in by the jury that it would be all over, including the bench trial. But, absent a defense verdict, it was prudent and wise to use the Court's time and the attorneys time since everyone was in Phoenix anyway, to hear and consider all the other issues than open before the Court. Remember that as a practical matter that USAPA's counsel were from New York and Pennsylvania and that their physical presence in Phoenix was also uncommon, plus they would be here through the time that the jury was considering the case.

Anyway, while I assume that you do not like the result at all, I thought that I would address the issues raised in your post.

 

[Nicstolemyjob]

Well, you may be furloughed again soon either through a court remedy of putting guys like Tiger in your place or the more likely continued downsizing as the economy continues to fade. So, take heart, you probably won't have to be crying and whining too much longer about having a job.

Oh, you mean that he's going to implememnt the Nic outside of a joint CBA? You're cracking me up...did you even read his warning to Harper about the "only remedy he can think of..." No, poor Tiger is going to sit this dance out until he gets offered a recall to the 190 out East, or lightning strikes and the East signs a deal containing the Nic.

Sorry Tiger, nothing personal. And for prechillil, re-read my posts, I am supporting seperate ops with no joint contract which KEEPS me on the 190....hardly whining as you so lovingly characterize....why? because in the big picture, it's the right thing to do.

 

[hp_fa]

If USAPA wins on appeal will you stand behind this statement?

Define "wins on appeal"? If the 9th Circuit does overturn anything the case will be reversed and remanded back to the trial court for any proceedings in conjunction with their ruling. The case won't go away, it just goes back to the trial court for more issues and then can potentially be appealed again.

 

[prechilill]

Oh, you mean that he's going to implememnt the Nic outside of a joint CBA? You're cracking me up...did you even read his warning to Harper about the "only remedy he can think of..." No, poor Tiger is going to sit this dance out until he gets offered a recall to the 190 out East, or lightning strikes and the East signs a deal containing the Nic.

Sorry Tiger, nothing personal. And for prechillil, re-read my posts, I am supporting seperate ops with no joint contract which KEEPS me on the 190....hardly whining as you so lovingly characterize....why? because in the big picture, it's the right thing to do.

Dude, you're whining quite a bit about the 190 thing. You just made a wordy post about how bad things are for you at $48 an hour, remember? I think you need to either quit whining or quit your job if it bothers you so much. Just some advice.

 

[hp_fa]

Maybe so. But maybe, I admit I am not totally sure, because this is injunctive relief the order stands until such time the 9th circuit stays the order or they remand it back to Judge Wake's court. HP HELP! Anyhow I wouldn't bank on your separate ops until we know exactly what the Judge's remedy is. Ya never know he may give you what you want... But you'll be living on those wages until you can bid off the 190. Kinda damned if you do damned if you don't huh?

You don't need help with that. You have a basic understanding of where it is right now. Look at my post a few minutes ago if that helps.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Excuse me, but I'm having a chat with some west pilots, thank you.

My apologies - I didn't know that you owned this chat board and decided who could post what...

Jim

 

[Richard]

The personal insults, attacks and namecalling will stop now, along with posts aimed at specific posters.

Next one gets time off.

Thank you.

 

[boeingplt]

Do you know what that statement means? Do you understand the process IF usapa wins an appeal?

Do a little research and get back to us.

Ok, while I educate myself how about not dodging the question. If the 9th district overturns the decision, do you still laud our legal system as the best ever or does that sentiment only apply when the courts agree with you?