US Pilots Labor Thread 5/13-19--NO PERSONAL REMARKS

[Piedmont1984]

KV

Piedmont 1984 you should be ashamed. You insinuate that because some F/Os who could be captains but stay as f/os then being an f/o really ain't so bad. You know good and well that a VAST majority of East f/os will NEVER see the left seat at this POS and an equally great number of Captains will never advance much past where they are now if Nic is implemented. A West guy commuting to PHL for a widebody Capt seat for an extra 40K a years. You Bet you a.. they will.....all of them.

Barrister......voting NO at any price until this POS it is split up and sold.

I am not insinuating squat. I am flat out saying in simple to understand English that twice now we have been assured by attorneys and union leadership, once under ALPA and now under USAPA, that our case is solid, we have nothing to worry about, we are supremely confident, blah, blah, blah.

Have you calculated exactly how much money you have left on the table in order to stick to "DOH or Bust"? Do you know how badly our E190 F/O's are hurting? If the Nic goes into our Section 22 do you know for a fact that the VAST majority of our F/O's will NEVER see the left seat - or are you just regurgitating the last thing you heard someone say?

How about some hard facts and figures, some cold statistics, some realistic numbers instead of emotion and reflex before we as a group take the next long, hard, expensive and uncertain path down "Appeal Lane".

 

[Tiger 1050]

I am not insinuating squat. I am flat out saying in simple to understand English that twice now we have been assured by attorneys and union leadership, once under ALPA and now under USAPA, that our case is solid, we have nothing to worry about, we are supremely confident, blah, blah, blah.

Have you calculated exactly how much money you have left on the table in order to stick to "DOH or Bust"? Do you know how badly our E190 F/O's are hurting? If the Nic goes into our Section 22 do you know for a fact that the VAST majority of our F/O's will NEVER see the left seat - or are you just regurgitating the last thing you heard someone say?

How about some hard facts and figures, some cold statistics, some realistic numbers instead of emotion and reflex before we as a group take the next long, hard, expensive and uncertain path down "Appeal Lane".

Right on Piedmont1984. This baby has all but been put to bed IMO. Sadly I feel (JMHO) the 9th Circuit will shoot this down and you'll be left with more insane promises of the Supreme Court.... All I can say to that is, hey I got some fine oceanfront property to sell you in AZ. Cleary is your/our worst enemy. He has little man complex and will not back down until this place is ashes. If that is what has to happen then fine. I am still relatively young and can make a good go of it somewhere else. Heck that may be what happens anyhow. I am currently furloughed. But I think it would be better if everyone were able to get past this nasty chapter, pool our collective resources, and get something we can all be happy with. Granted some will lose out. But most will notice little real change compared to what they had earlier. I do not think you'll see the masses moving out east to fly widebody airplanes. Some, yes. But most will not make any move. The sentiment that it is hoped that the west is disappearing (obviously just for spite) is a little odd considering WHEN the nic is in place most of the west, who would have otherwise stayed in the west, will now be forced to move into the east.

All it takes is for USAPA to live up to its obligations and we can and will move forward...

Again. Great post.

Tiger

 

[Nicstolemyjob]

I am not insinuating squat. I am flat out saying in simple to understand English that twice now we have been assured by attorneys and union leadership, once under ALPA and now under USAPA, that our case is solid, we have nothing to worry about, we are supremely confident, blah, blah, blah.

Have you calculated exactly how much money you have left on the table in order to stick to "DOH or Bust"? Do you know how badly our E190 F/O's are hurting? If the Nic goes into our Section 22 do you know for a fact that the VAST majority of our F/O's will NEVER see the left seat - or are you just regurgitating the last thing you heard someone say?

How about some hard facts and figures, some cold statistics, some realistic numbers instead of emotion and reflex before we as a group take the next long, hard, expensive and uncertain path down "Appeal Lane".

I AM an E90 FO...so I can speak to this directly. And I can tell you that since I was on furlough at the time of the merger, Nic said my 3 years of service didn't count and put the ENTIRE AWA list ahead of me...1700 numbers. I'm 45....you tell me? Am I gonna EVER upgrade? AM I EVER gonna get off the 190?

As bad as it is, the Nic was wrong, it still is, and even YOU know it...you're just hitting the wall.

Take a walk in MY E-190 shoes...$48/hour. (Tiger1050, why don't you come on out to PHL for $48/hour on the E9?)

We appeal, and we run seperate ops until this gets fixed. I am FAR from alone in this regard.

 

[nic4us]

I am not insinuating squat. I am flat out saying in simple to understand English that twice now we have been assured by attorneys and union leadership, once under ALPA and now under USAPA, that our case is solid, we have nothing to worry about, we are supremely confident, blah, blah, blah.

Have you calculated exactly how much money you have left on the table in order to stick to "DOH or Bust"? Do you know how badly our E190 F/O's are hurting? If the Nic goes into our Section 22 do you know for a fact that the VAST majority of our F/O's will NEVER see the left seat - or are you just regurgitating the last thing you heard someone say?

How about some hard facts and figures, some cold statistics, some realistic numbers instead of emotion and reflex before we as a group take the next long, hard, expensive and uncertain path down "Appeal Lane".

Piedmont,

The question to this could be answered if we got the company to run a mock system bid using Nic. Perhaps that would put some fears to rest. the resulting numbers would be highly squed but it would give a good ballpark figure of where people want to go, and where they would sit once they where there. Basically, take everyones standing bid and tell them where they would be in a wide open system bump and flush. I may find out I do not hold PHX capt lineholder, and a PHL f/o might be surprised at upgrade. Who knows until we do it.

I agree that we should get some data on the ramifications of implementation to help make better decisions.

 

[Poug Darker]

nic4Us"The question to this could be answered if we got the company to run a mock system bid using Nic. Perhaps that would put some fears to rest. the resulting numbers would be highly squed but it would give a good ballpark figure of where people want to go, and where they would sit once they where there. Basically, take everyones standing bid and tell them where they would be in a wide open system bump and flush. I may find out I do not hold PHX capt lineholder, and a PHL f/o might be surprised at upgrade. Who knows until we do it.

I agree that we should get some data on the ramifications of implementation to help make better decisions."
---

The problem is not what will happen on the next bid, it's what will happen 5-15 years from now: the east will not be able to capture east attrition - a majority of the east captain slots vacated by retirements will be available to west guys, who, of course, will not leave their pleasant southwest desert environs to travel to the nasty east coast for a measly multi-thousand dollar pay raise. Right.
I was born, but not yesterday.

 

[boeingplt]

God Bless our Judicial System- it is the fairest in the history of civilized man.

If USAPA wins on appeal will you stand behind this statement?

 

[tazz]

I AM an E90 FO...so I can speak to this directly. And I can tell you that since I was on furlough at the time of the merger, Nic said my 3 years of service didn't count and put the ENTIRE AWA list ahead of me...1700 numbers. I'm 45....you tell me? Am I gonna EVER upgrade? AM I EVER gonna get off the 190?

As bad as it is, the Nic was wrong, it still is, and even YOU know it...you're just hitting the wall.

Take a walk in MY E-190 shoes...$48/hour. (Tiger1050, why don't you come on out to PHL for $48/hour on the E9?)

We appeal, and we run seperate ops until this gets fixed. I am FAR from alone in this regard.

Did you read Tiger's post? He's furloughed. You're whining about 190 FO pay. He has nothing. You were furloughed when this acquisition happened and now you're working. He's not. Despite Parker's mantra of no bump and flush that's exactly what we got. Guys like Tiger bumped and flushed.

You were furloughed at the time of the acquisition. You brought nothing to the mix. Tiger did. The east's reneging on a legal final and binding agreement stole his job. Thank God the court sees the truth in this.

I continue to be completely amazed at the attitude of the east. Dumbfounded.

 

[nic4us]

I AM an E90 FO...so I can speak to this directly. And I can tell you that since I was on furlough at the time of the merger, Nic said my 3 years of service didn't count and put the ENTIRE AWA list ahead of me...1700 numbers. I'm 45....you tell me? Am I gonna EVER upgrade? AM I EVER gonna get off the 190?

As bad as it is, the Nic was wrong, it still is, and even YOU know it...you're just hitting the wall.

Take a walk in MY E-190 shoes...$48/hour. (Tiger1050, why don't you come on out to PHL for $48/hour on the E9?)

We appeal, and we run seperate ops until this gets fixed. I am FAR from alone in this regard.

First,It should definitely be a priority to enhance e-190 conditions in any contract.

Second, Nic did not say your 3 years do not count, Nic said your furloughed position at the time of merger did not hold the same status as those who were employed at the time. You obviously disagree, but that does not make Nic wrong.

Third, since Tiger1050, is senior to you on the Nic and currently furloughed, he just may want to take a walk in your e-190 shoes.

Finally, go on and appeal, it will most likely go nowhere. USAPA is fighting this legal battle "with its hands tied behind its back" by the fact that they are guilty.

 

[aquagreen73s]

If USAPA wins on appeal will you stand behind this statement?

Yes...just like I'll become an Elvis fan if I ever see him walking in the CLT Douglass terminal.

The chances of a successful appear are as close to the number zero as one can get. In the meantime, the world turns and Doug is busy making his next deal. In any case, right now the most likely scenario is that macro events will overtake this dispute and make the appeal moot.

 

[cleardirect]

I AM an E90 FO...so I can speak to this directly. And I can tell you that since I was on furlough at the time of the merger, Nic said my 3 years of service didn't count and put the ENTIRE AWA list ahead of me...1700 numbers. I'm 45....you tell me? Am I gonna EVER upgrade? AM I EVER gonna get off the 190?

As bad as it is, the Nic was wrong, it still is, and even YOU know it...you're just hitting the wall.

Take a walk in MY E-190 shoes...$48/hour. (Tiger1050, why don't you come on out to PHL for $48/hour on the E9?)

We appeal, and we run seperate ops until this gets fixed. I am FAR from alone in this regard.

I don’t mean to belittle your plight. However! Where there tears on your keyboard when you wrote this? Typical attitude from the east. Whine, complain, it must be someone else’s fault that you find yourself in this position. Blame everyone but yourself.

You said that you were on furlough at the time. When you accepted recall you knew what the Nicolau list was and where you sat on it. You knew that you were being recalled into the 190 and I believe that you had the right to refuse the recall. You knew the pay rates of the 190, $48 per hour. You also knew that those rates were locked for 10 years. That was going to be the rate you would work under.

With all of that information YOU made a choice. You decided to return to US Airways under those conditions. Now that you are unable to change the circumstances to your favor you expect some sympathy from the rest of the world. Slavery was abolished a long time ago. No one is forcing you to stay. If it is so unreasonable or difficult for you simply leave.

Find something that will make you happy and that you can accept.

Pretty selfish attitude that the entire company and merger should be put on hold so YOU can somehow improve your poor choice. Separate ops until you feel better.

 

[cleardirect]

If USAPA wins on appeal will you stand behind this statement?

Do you know what that statement means? Do you understand the process IF usapa wins an appeal?

Do a little research and get back to us.

 

[tazz]

Do you know what that statement means? Do you understand the process IF usapa wins an appeal?

Do a little research and get back to us.

These guys make Monty Python's Black Knight look like a wise man.

 

[Nicstolemyjob]

Did you read Tiger's post? He's furloughed. You're whining about 190 FO pay. He has nothing. You were furloughed when this acquisition happened and now you're working. He's not. Despite Parker's mantra of no bump and flush that's exactly what we got. Guys like Tiger bumped and flushed.

You were furloughed at the time of the acquisition. You brought nothing to the mix. Tiger did. The east's reneging on a legal final and binding agreement stole his job. Thank God the court sees the truth in this.

I continue to be completely amazed at the attitude of the east. Dumbfounded.

Yes, I read Tigers post, and I know he's furloughed...(perfectly legally, by the way) I also submit that if our boy Dougie announces a merger tomorrow with Virgin America, Tiger goes to the bottom below guys hired last week at Virgin. Sound about right? Sound fair? I say it does NOT sound fair to Tiger, just as it was not fair to me. But, Nic doesn't see it that way, does he. The system that Nic produced is flawed under every union principle of seniority. (thanks to ALPA)
I am not picking on Tiger, I'm using him as a furloughed example...just as I was. Believe this: there are guys who were displaced to the 190 that would PREFER to be furloughed, at least then they could go overseas on a contract and pay their bills. The condition of being stuck on the 190 with a family and mortgage is impossible...slow financial death, while working your 85 hour line, and filing for bankruptcy....

Sure, come on out to the 190...you'll love it.

 

[nic4us]

The problem is not what will happen on the next bid, it's what will happen 5-15 years from now: the east will not be able to capture east attrition - a majority of the east captain slots vacated by retirements will be available to west guys, who, of course, will not leave their pleasant southwest desert environs to travel to the nasty east coast for a measly multi-thousand dollar pay raise. Right.
I was born, but not yesterday.

Darker

I understand what you are saying about 5-10 year timeframe, but I do not understand why east will not capture east attrition.

Nic is a ratioed list, basically 2/3. East will capture 2/3 of all attrition both East and West, and in the east bases they will eventually capture a higher percentage. A majority of east captain slots will be available to that 2/3(east) and the other 1/3(west) does not make a majority.

I know that people will move. I have carried 2 east jumpseaters very much senior to me who live in Phoenix, and voiced their desire to get to the PHX base.

I also understand that seperate ops has caused a defacto fence, and when it comes down it will initially cause a run on captain seat by West f/o's that can hold them. I also think a lot of those would have to go east for that seat because Phoenix will go senior, i.e. Sully and company.

 

[Tiger 1050]

I AM an E90 FO...so I can speak to this directly. And I can tell you that since I was on furlough at the time of the merger, Nic said my 3 years of service didn't count and put the ENTIRE AWA list ahead of me...1700 numbers. I'm 45....you tell me? Am I gonna EVER upgrade? AM I EVER gonna get off the 190?

No offense but how long have you been in this industry? C'mon man you know as well as anyone there is no such guarantees in the crazy biz. NOBODY is ever guaranteed upgrade.
Hey I may be in your shoes. I am furloughed now with 5 yrs LOS and if we merge it may not mean squat. The trick is to move on if you have a chance. Do what's best for you and your family. Since it's obvious you chose to return stop blaming everyone else for all this mess and man up. This was YOUR choice.

Take a walk in MY E-190 shoes...$48/hour. (Tiger1050, why don't you come on out to PHL for $48/hour on the E9?)

Ha! Funny thing is it will probably come down to that. I may have to evaluate what my options are at the time. Considering my location I probably would turn it down unless it was on the west coast. I just don't believe this job is worth that kinda commute.

Also we could probably fix those E190 rates but as long as you and the others out east stifle any real progress then that's just something you're gonna have to live with. Talk to Snoop. He'll tell ya there is a huge snapback coming regarding pay rates. But then he seems to regurgitate all the rhetoric that spews from USAPA's leadership. Considering their track record so far, do you believe them?

We appeal, and we run seperate ops until this gets fixed. I am FAR from alone in this regard.

Maybe so. But maybe, I admit I am not totally sure, because this is injunctive relief the order stands until such time the 9th circuit stays the order or they remand it back to Judge Wake's court. HP HELP! Anyhow I wouldn't bank on your separate ops until we know exactly what the Judge's remedy is. Ya never know he may give you what you want... But you'll be living on those wages until you can bid off the 190. Kinda damned if you do damned if you don't huh?