US Pilots' Labor Thread 4/28-5/5--NO PERSONAL REMARKS

[prechilill]

You are truly dreaming. If this goes for the west (and I have always conceded that real possibility,) the east is not cornered. If the jury awards outrageous sums, the east is not cornered. My hunch is that we would simply abandon the unincorporated USAPA and walk away.

You are suing USAPA, not me, or any other east pilot. We are NOT individually responsible for a judgment against USAPA. And if USAPA dissolves, where is it that you think you will get that money?

If the west prevails and the jury has not been paying attention, you may well cause the demise of USAPA. That would be the worst case scenario. If you are out buying a new Mercedes based on your aniticpated windfall, look for it to be repossessed quickly after the dust settles.

A union is not a corporation, you cannot file bankruptcy and walk away from your debts or court ordered claims. A union represents YOU. When the west wins a judgement against USAPA, we are winning a judgement against you. That is what you signed up for by voting USAPA as your representative.

 

[aquagreen73s]

If this goes for the west (and I have always conceded that real possibility,)

Why? Because you knew you were guilty all along?

the east is not cornered. If the jury awards outrageous sums, the east is not cornered. My hunch is that we would simply abandon the unincorporated USAPA and walk away.

Oh really? It's that simple? Word of advice: that brick wall you're hitting is pretty thick and pretty stout.

If the west prevails and the jury has not been paying attention, you may well cause the demise of USAPA. That would be the worst case scenario. If you are out buying a new Mercedes based on your aniticpated windfall, look for it to be repossessed quickly after the dust settles.

Oh I see...we're back to the "burn the place down and hand the ashes to the West . . ." crap. Am I hearing you correctly?

Let's see how long that lasts. A couple of dozen firings and that would be the end of that.

 

[toganoflex]

How about the 800 lb. gorilla called Windfall???

Doesn't exist.

 

[aquagreen73s]

A union is not a corporation, you cannot file bankruptcy and walk away from your debts or court ordered claims. A union represents YOU. When the west wins a judgement against USAPA, we are winning a judgement against you. That is what you signed up for by voting USAPA as your representative.

Also known as: "The Law of Unintended Consequences."

 

[flybynite]

Windfall. Are you referring to the top 517 east pilots? Maybe you are referring to the 85% of the contract that the east is going to get. Could the windfall be the fact that the east still has a job because of the merger? Which one are you talking about?

How about the west still has a job because of the merger?????

 

[toganoflex]

If the verdict goes our way the east is pretty miuch cornered. They were allowed tremendous wiggle room to evade agreements through nebulous labor laws but now with the federal courts involved they will actually have to comply with the letter of the law. No more hiding, no more running. A verdict against the east will certainly be a surprise to the easties on here, but the damages part will probably put them over the edge. Many of them haven't a clue as to where they are really heading, but soon they will understand their "union" is nothing more than a gang of thugs. If only the shoe were on the other foot, you would see the courageous anonymous posters hiding behind screen names singing different tunes about what is appropriate for unions to do. Suing their own members isn't one, lying about the law, lying about the boudaries of what a union can and cannot do aren't there either. Dumb, emotional people started USAPA and that is why when confronted by a few savvy, intelligent west pilots who created AOL USAPA is crumbling. They cannot deliver on any of their campaign promises and one year into this abomination they have accomplished nothing! And we haven't even gotten to a verdict in the Addington case. What's going to happen then? USAPA is pretty much out of options- they painted themsleves into a corner through actions which will cost the east membership dearly.
Here is a possible scenario if Addington prevails: the damages will be a lot (way beyond the ~1.5 mil in legal expenses they will be paying for east and west). My take is assessments will be made to the east pilots (can't assess the west since we are all members of the same class action), nobody will pay, the union won't collect and then a federal judge will put the union into trusteeship. The trustee will collect the money (I estimate 2-3k for every east pilot) and make the west whole. Now, the divide between east and west will be bigger than ever, but again after the east launched its assault on the west the two groups were pretty much irreconcilable then so not much will have changed. This story is going to end with a federal remedy possibly with the help of another merger which would significantly dilute the stranglehold the emotional easties have on labor governance. Basically, we are seeing the death of a monster this week and the Addington name will be heard in many labor law classes as to what a labor union actually can do. Rewriting and ignoring arbitration decisions isn't one of them. Irresponsibility is going to come with a price.

As I keep posting, the first $35 million will cover everything quite nicely.

 

[toganoflex]

How about the west still has a job because of the merger?????

Said Mr. Chapter 7

 

[nic4us]

How about the 800 lb. gorilla called Windfall???

That gorilla is not in the room, he is in the mind of the 10 lbs vulture called USAPA, and is completely disregarded by the 2 ton elephant called Labor law.

 

[Metroyet]

That gorilla is not in the room, he is in the mind of the 10 lbs vulture called USAPA, and is completely disregarded by the 2 ton elephant called Labor law.

you mean the 2 OUNCE vulture with a 2 GRAM brain...

 

[toganoflex]

We are NOT individually responsible for a judgment against USAPA. And if USAPA dissolves, where is it that you think you will get that money?

You are VERY MUCH responsible for that judgement. Just ask an AA pilot when the judge fined the APA almost $46 million dollars. Those pilots were going to each pay a few grand in assessments to cover that fine.

If you think otherwise, you're naive.

 

[hp_fa]

If the jury awards outrageous sums, the east is not cornered. My hunch is that we would simply abandon the unincorporated USAPA and walk away.

This jury is not deciding any damages, so win or lose there will not be damages coming from this jury. The Court may possibly assess legal costs/fees (I am **NOT** sure of that), but damages will not come from this jury. **If** this jury finds for the plaintiffs than a damages proceeding will take place in the future.

As for your hunch, I tend to agree. However, walk away to what? No union at all? Back to ALPA?

I have said this before, as in long before now and Mr. Bradford's deposition testimony that was read to the jury touched on it, that a lot of the issues that East members claim are from ALPA are actually from your own members who ran for and won ALPA LEC/MEC positions and/or committee posts. Mr. Bradford testified in his deposition regarding "political" issues and on the issues of "difficult personality" regarding at least one LEC Chair. My opinion still holds that East pilots are in large part seeking protection from themselves via their own elected members.

It remains to be seen if any testimony comes in that clarifies why East didn't have any attempts, or at least meaningful attempts, to remove ALPA as a bargaining agent until after Nicolau. The members were indeed stirred up by BK's 1& 2 in the last decade regarding the pension diminishment and LOA 93, but so far I don't see any tangible actions that were taken by any members regarding all, or any, of that in the form of eaither a new union or re-defining how the membership-at-large was being represented by their representatives.

This whole thing is such a mess.

 

[nic4us]

How about the west still has a job because of the merger?????

There are in excess of 140 West pilots who cannot say that. There are also a few hundred LAS based employees who cannot say that. They could say they gave their jobs to save an east job that was off property prior to the merger.

 

[toganoflex]

My hunch is that we would simply abandon the unincorporated USAPA and walk away.

What an awesome strategy!!!

I think you guys are going to blindside the judge with that one.

I'll have to remember that the next time a bill comes due - ignore it and it will go away.

 

[Megasnoop]

A union is not a corporation,

It can be. We chose not to incorporate.

you cannot file bankruptcy and walk away from your debts or court ordered claims.

Sure we can, almost. With the unlikely case of an onerous Judge award, the judge can attach what we got in the bank, maybe even (overdue-west) accounts receivable, and then we just shut it down. No representation for either side. With your marginal west base revenues, without a union, who wins that one? We could even win the arbitrations that would bring everyone back from furlough, but without a union to enforce the arb ruling, no recalls.

When the west wins a judgement against USAPA, we are winning a judgement against you. That is what you signed up for by voting USAPA as your representative.

Dont know where you got your legal training, but not so, Lil. If you believe a judge can levy a financial award on individuals, then I guess all west pilots who joined will have to pay as well. And getting a share of our $70M lump sums? When pigs fly, but then who knows, last week swine flu.

I am wondering how to vote on the west furlough medical. Is it hypocritical for me to vote for USAPA to fund it when no one out west supported parity for the east and the west doesn't pay dues, seems odd to expect the east to shoulder the financial burden to supply medical insurance to the only pilot group in history to actively supress the wages of another pilot group. Can't there be a west assesment through AWAPPA or AOL. I feel bad for the furlough guys caught in the middle. It should never have come to this. The west should have been proactive and funded this on their own.

Normally I dont reply to a 1st poster. You could be a regular using a new alias. Im voting for the resolution. A vote against just solidifies the position of the West bullies who told those near the bottom of the list not to join or pay dues. Keep in mind that AWAPPA and AOL are single-purpose organizations. As Mcalvenna said the point of AWAPPA was to destroy USAPA. AOL goal was to enforce the NIC. They could care less about furloughed pilots they told not to join or pay dues. One thing a shame, West was pressuring new-hires not to join, even though they werent part of the DFR class, yet they were the first to go and the most vulernable. Way to go, West.

So dont vote your instinct. Vote your conscience. Youll feel better and long-term promote better E-W relations. Also the right thing to do. Snoop

 

[hp_fa]

Oh, and just one more personal observation from trial. Despite all that I had read here over the last five to six years and the impressions that I had formed based entirely on third-party observations/discussions and material, I was actually pleasantly surprised at Jack Stephan. He wasn't what I had imagined he would be at my first in-person observation of him.

(Before anyone jumps on me, the above statement has nothing to do with his testimony and my perceptions of what has been said or what may be said on Tuesday, simply that he was not what I had expected based on all the things I had read here over the years.)