US Pilots' Labor Thread 4/28-5/5--NO PERSONAL REMARKS

[Megasnoop]

You are VERY MUCH responsible for that judgement. Just ask an AA pilot when the judge fined the APA almost $46 million dollars. Those pilots were going to each pay a few grand in assessments to cover that fine.

If you think otherwise, you're naive.

Flex, one more time to set the record straight, the APA fines were for contempt of court, smarting off to the judge and deliberately violating his order. Pres Lavoy and VP Mayhew of APA got hit with individual contempt fines, about$10K each. Ultimately, the fines were forgiven. AMR got concessions from APA and then talked to the judge.
It we lose and get hit with a judgement, we might just decide to shut the union down. Judge takes all our money and even our accounts receivable (un-paid dues and agency fees). Even if we win the current arbitrations, without a union we cant enforce them. No union lets parker do whatever he wants. All those underperforming West routes and bases? All those higher paid 737/320 jobs? Parker will go where the money is.

their "union" is nothing more than a gang of thugs. Dumb, emotional people started USAPA

A bit on the edge, Id say, Lil.

Suing their own members

Lil, when did that happen? Everyone RICOed was non-member, bent on destroying USAPA. Or had you forgot? At least thats what Mcalvenna said the purpose of AWAPPA was.

snooper

 

[toganoflex]

Flex, one more time to set the record straight, the APA fines were for contempt of court, smarting off to the judge and deliberately violating his order. Pres Lavoy and VP Mayhew of APA got hit with individual contempt fines, about$10K each. Ultimately, the fines were forgiven. AMR got concessions from APA and then talked to the judge.
It we lose and get hit with a judgement, we might just decide to shut the union down. Judge takes all our money and even our accounts receivable (un-paid dues and agency fees). Even if we win the current arbitrations, without a union we cant enforce them. No union lets parker do whatever he wants. All those underperforming West routes and bases? All those higher paid 737/320 jobs? Parker will go where the money is. snooper

Snoop, one more time. I know what the fines were about and the fact is the APA (meaning the pilots) were responsible for those fines. Though the pilots never paid them directly, they did so through concessions.

They got VERY lucky the judge was in a good mood.

As for that dream you east guys keep having about the underperforming west, you need to look at your international stuff before you keep talking. And you sure have alot of 73's over there.

 

[cltrat]

if the west is not under performing, why has all the flight cuts come from there or at least a high % of them.

if you compare profit from international with west flights i dont think you would like what you see

 

[toganoflex]

Ya?

How about the east underperforming to the point of liquidation.

I figured you put that out of mind.

 

[cltrat]

lol you're funny and a bit delusional no wonder you think a 10 year guy should be in front of a 25 year one

 

[prechilill]

lol you're funny and a bit delusional no wonder you think a 10 year guy should be in front of a 25 year one

Toga isn't the only one who thinks that way, four arbitrators and two pilot neutrals think the same way too!

 

[Richard]

OK, Here's yet another warning..

STOP THE EAST vs. WEST CHEST THUMPING NOW. It does not matter who bought whom, who is outperforming whom or anything else at the moment. The legal matter is in court.

DISCUSS THE CASE AND THE IMPLICATIONS--and stop the personal attacks insults and namecalling NOW.

Think before you post. There are a number of 14 day suspensions already issued, and I see about 5 more about to happen.

You are all reflecting very poorly upon your side of the issue and your profession with much of the hateful and vile material you are posting here.......

 

[banshee74]

Every frequent poster on this pilot site should be embarrassed by its content. Does it strike anyone as strange that the only topic that has a warning of constant improper content is the one covering the pilot group?

Show me one positive thing that has come out of any of these postings........and since you can't do that, how about we start looking at what we do after the trial and further down the road? However the seniority is integrated, the absolute key word is INTEGRATED, and we will all be flying together....what then? Given the content here, on both sides, it scares the heck out of me!

Remember, no about of banging on a forum keyboard changes anything in real life!!!! So how about we start getting on with it!

 

[usabusdriver]

look everyone!...the paralegal thinks it was a wash. Well, that settles that.

The East case does not hinge on Sully, but hey, lets recap:

In court, 20 minutes of dialogue wherein Sully spoke about a failed policy, shocking unfairness, etc etc...

I note the carpet-bombing now of Sully on these boards since he "had no dog in this"...

He spoke HIS truth....was he prepared? maybe...isn't EVERYONE who goes on the stand?...paralegal/counselor?

V1,

Just for arguments sake lets say 767jets, the United Airlines pilot, was called to testify by the west for his view of the fairness of the Nic award and whether or not he thought there was a windfall for the west pilot group.

Would you argue that he should not be allowed testify because he has no dog in the fight? The west would argue that the Nic award has set precedent in the aviation industry as evidenced by the DAL/NWA arbitration award and therefore 767jets’ opinion of the award is a valid example of what the “industryâ€￾ view of DOH vs relative seniority is for a merger of two airlines.

We all have our beliefs and opinions and usually hold that ours are correct, but there is often a counter position that may be just as valid. That is what makes trying to game what transpires in the courtroom about objections or the facts brought out by an individual’s testimony are very subjective and the true value is only seen interpreted through the lens of the jury. So until the jury renders a verdict in this case, the banter back and forth about how one side or the other is developing an advantage is really analogous to masturbation, an activity that may involve some fantasy or projection and ultimately may feel good, but is in reality not the real thing and leaves one wanting. :wub:


Just my .02 worth.

 

[flybynite]

This jury is not deciding any damages, so win or lose there will not be damages coming from this jury. The Court may possibly assess legal costs/fees (I am **NOT** sure of that), but damages will not come from this jury. **If** this jury finds for the plaintiffs than a damages proceeding will take place in the future.

As for your hunch, I tend to agree. However, walk away to what? No union at all? Back to ALPA?

I have said this before, as in long before now and Mr. Bradford's deposition testimony that was read to the jury touched on it, that a lot of the issues that East members claim are from ALPA are actually from your own members who ran for and won ALPA LEC/MEC positions and/or committee posts. Mr. Bradford testified in his deposition regarding "political" issues and on the issues of "difficult personality" regarding at least one LEC Chair. My opinion still holds that East pilots are in large part seeking protection from themselves via their own elected members.

It remains to be seen if any testimony comes in that clarifies why East didn't have any attempts, or at least meaningful attempts, to remove ALPA as a bargaining agent until after Nicolau. The members were indeed stirred up by BK's 1& 2 in the last decade regarding the pension diminishment and LOA 93, but so far I don't see any tangible actions that were taken by any members regarding all, or any, of that in the form of eaither a new union or re-defining how the membership-at-large was being represented by their representatives.

This whole thing is such a mess.

Oh, it's a mess all right. But I will say this...no matter how this turns out...USAPA will still be the pilot's bargaining agent. Unless someone decides to try oust them and vote in another bargaining agent. Another story, another day. (please don't start)

It would be a huge job for anyone to explain how this came about to a jury much less if the Judge would allow it. This mess with ALPA was years in the making and has impacted the pilots industry wide.
I really believe the Nic Award was the last damn straw. That's when they finally drew the line. They wanted some control over thier own union and it's policies. My opinion only.

I've watched this transpire for 20 years in amazement and I knew at some point something was going to give.

Hopefully at some point down the road the pilots can get on the same page and move on.
I hate the venom between the parties involved. I don't think I'm the only one who feels this way.

Picking at each other on this board is counterproductive and unprofessional. It makes us all look bad.

 

[prechilill]

This mess with ALPA was years in the making and has impacted the pilots industry wide.
I really believe the Nic Award was the last damn straw. That's when they finally drew the line. They wanted some control over thier own union and it's policies. My opinion only.

One tiny problem with your post: East pilots controlled their own union, not ALPA. Everything east pilots suffered from union mismanagement was brought on by that guy staring back at them in the mirror. Perhaps east pilots thought that man in the mirror was too ignorant and clueless to construct the years of setbacks and missed opportunities which are hallmarks of an east pilot's career, however the reality is that truth is staring them right in the face each time they look in the mirror. None of them want to see it, thoiugh. ALPA had nothing to do with it- easties own their union misfortune all by themselves. It's that man in the mirror thing they have trouble dealing with...

 

[traderjake]

lol you're funny and a bit delusional no wonder you think a 10 year guy should be in front of a 25 year one

A ten year guy absolutely should go ahead of a 25 year guy if the ten year was a block holding Captain and the 25 year was a reserve F/O.

This is the nonsensical and emotion based thinking that got us where we are today.

 

[flybynite]

One tiny problem with your post: East pilots controlled their own union, not ALPA. Everything east pilots suffered from union mismanagement was brought on by that guy staring back at them in the mirror. Perhaps east pilots thought that man in the mirror was too ignorant and clueless to construct the years of setbacks and missed opportunities which are hallmarks of an east pilot's career, however the reality is that truth is staring them right in the face each time they look in the mirror. None of them want to see it, thoiugh. ALPA had nothing to do with it- easties own their union misfortune all by themselves. It's that man in the mirror thing they have trouble dealing with...

Interesting post. A little creepy too.

 

[BajaBabe]

Windfall. Are you referring to the top 517 east pilots? Maybe you are referring to the 85% of the contract that the east is going to get. Could the windfall be the fact that the east still has a job because of the merger? Which one are you talking about?

Exactly, how many wide-body positions did A&W bring to the table? Could it have been, close to, 517 positions or closer to zero positions?

and, when you imply "east still has a job", are you forgetting that, simultaneously, the west also has a job only because of the "merger"? Did not Tempe have an alternative plan, named Zanzibar, that would have completely liquidated "A&W" should the "merger" not occur?

 

[BajaBabe]

You are VERY MUCH responsible for that judgement. Just ask an AA pilot when the judge fined the APA almost $46 million dollars. Those pilots were going to each pay a few grand in assessments to cover that fine.

If you think otherwise, you're naive.

Actually, had you even tried to review the facts of the case, you would find otherwise.