US Pilots labor thread 4/17-

[700UW]

If the COC is so strong why did the pilots not grieve it and why did the other unions lose the arbitration?

 

[Metroyet]

Calloway, you and the west are incredibly unschooled about a lot of things, and you are going to be left behind.

One union representing ALL Us Airways pilots...remember? Any deal includes a joint contract and the Nic. If the West enjoys the same "huge" payraise you think you're going to get than so much the better. You will not receive one single, solitary benefit moving fwd. if it is not shared by ALL DUES PAYING MEMBERS. The Company is not dumb enough to start discriminating benefits withing a pilot group. Your first best move to see any benefits for the rest of your career is to drop the lawsuits, accept the Nic. and start negotiating in good faith. I will agree with you on one point, Merging with UAL was probably going to end up a disaster new contract or not. If there is an airline more effed up than US Air it's United.

 

[nycbusdriver]

If the COC is so strong why did the pilots not grieve it and why did the other unions lose the arbitration?

Simply because there was no change in control. The money was gathered by the east forces (i.e. Lakefield,) The money elects the BOD, which means the BOD is stacked with people who are east shills. Parker became CEO because Lakefield hated running this company and he took every opportunity to say so publicly, while Parker probably nearly eja******* in his shorts over the possibility of running a bigger airline. Letting Parker stay in Tempe saved a lot of money over the huge rents paid in Crystal City. No other airline took control of USAirways. A group of investors effectively did, and I don't think the COC language in the contract becomes effective unless another carrier takes control.

 

[CallawayGolf]

You Westies were all over the COC, saying it wasn't going to happen.Parker brought it up from the blue, and you guys were sitting there with stupid looks of denial. Then you went on a big campaign just like the usual spin you put out when you are befuddled. You just don't get it. We had this put in for a reason. A real good reason, and there is nothing you or Parker can do anything about it. And that is just the way we want it. It is a huge lever, and we will use it to the EAST advantage. The west did nothing for the pay parity issue. You had plenty of time and warning about the course you took, and it is going to cost you now. By the way, who wants to merge with UAL anyhow? Parker has screwed this up beyond the pale. First DAL, now UAL. He cannot merge unless he pays the East. Parker has done nothing to raise East pay, why should we even begin to talk with him?If he comes to us?"real leaders would have worked...." A real leader, and a smart one would have not pushed LOA 93 as long as he did, and it is going to be the end of him.The money? It is going to have to be a HUGE number to get a deal, HUGE. Calloway, you and the west are incredibly unschooled about a lot of things, and you are going to be left behind.

Right. If I'm in need of so much schooling on this why is it that USAPA ran off to the 9th to make fools of themselves (or confirm their status as such) by filing an emergency request for a stay of the injunction? Seems to me that if USAPA thought the US/UA merger was not good for the east pilots they would have walked away from the executive meeting and issued a statement saying they opposed management's plan. Perhaps a nice US Today ad would have been in order. But no, they burned pavement to try and move the merger along as long as DOH was an option - which it never was.

I'm perfectly aware of the process and who we are dealing with at USAPA. I would think they would be running out of feet to shoot themselves in pretty soon.

 

[luvn737s]

How about a rousing round of "FULL PAY TO THE LAST DAY" (OK, lousy bottom of the barrel pay to the last day, but that doesn't sound as good) or THE CONCESSION STAND IS CLOSED!! (Well actually our stubbornness is causing us to suffer under concessions much longer than we otherwise would, but that's not a good sound bite either)

RAH RAH RAH (as in Republic Airlines Holdings which might be the home for the east domestic operation)

 

[nic4us]

The money was gathered by the east forces (i.e. Lakefield,)

Nice hypothetical, now go check the facts.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Simply because there was no change in control.

That part you got right, the rest...not so much.

The money was gathered by the east forces (i.e. Lakefield,)

Doesn't matter who raises the money.

The money elects the BOD, which means the BOD is stacked with people who are east shills.

"Stacking" the BOD with "East shills" would have constituted a CoC. That's why less than half the BOD represented the outside investors.

No other airline took control of USAirways. A group of investors effectively did, and I don't think the COC language in the contract becomes effective unless another carrier takes control.

A group of people (investors) acting in unison for a common purpose, can constitute a CoC just as much as another airline buying US. The key is "acting in unison for a common purpose" - if they get together and decide to pool their money to buy an airline, it's a CoC. If they individually decide to invest some money hoping for a profit (or to have a place to fly their CRJ's in the case of Air Wisconsin) it doesn't constitute a CoC.

Some on the East side seem to focus on only the part of Parker's statement that said that there couldn't be a merger without changing the CoC language and forget the other part - or a merger wouldn't trigger the CoC language. As I've said before, one need look no further than the US/HP merger to see how relatively easy it is to structure a merger that doesn't run afoul of the CoC language. Especially so since any merger would almost certainly be a stock swap transaction.

Jim

 

[nic4us]

why is it that USAPA ran off to the 9th to make fools of themselves (or confirm their status as such) by filing an emergency request for a stay of the injunction? Seems to me that if USAPA thought the US/UA merger was not good for the east pilots they would have walked away from the executive meeting and issued a statement saying they opposed management's plan. Perhaps a nice US Today ad would have been in order. But no, they burned pavement to try and move the merger along as long as DOH was an option - which it never was.

I'm perfectly aware of the process and who we are dealing with at USAPA. I would think they would be running out of feet to shoot themselves in pretty soon.

If this latest story is confirmed to be true, usapa has risked dire consequences. By the behavior displayed, usapa has admitted that their official position is the Nic, and that their official position, regarding their official position, is to do everything in their power to get out of their official position. A completely Seehamesque line of circular logic. They are saying, we are not opposed to the Nic, as long as we can oppose the Nic. Well newflash usapa, not only have you failed the West, you have grossly failed the top 1000 east pilots in your latest escapade.

When the damages trial starts, I cannot wait to see how Cleary explains to the court, that he had an injunction telling him how to negotiate with the company, yet failed to do that for fear that it would impose the injunction that he and his group of job stealing lackies oppose.

 

[HPearlyretiree]

If this latest story is confirmed to be true, usapa has risked dire consequences. By the behavior displayed, usapa has admitted that their official position is the Nic, and that their official position, regarding their official position, is to do everything in their power to get out of their official position. A completely Seehamesque line of circular logic. They are saying, we are not opposed to the Nic, as long as we can oppose the Nic. Well newflash usapa, not only have you failed the West, you have grossly failed the top 1000 east pilots in your latest escapade.

When the damages trial starts, I cannot wait to see how Cleary explains to the court, that he had an injunction telling him how to negotiate with the company, yet failed to do that for fear that it would impose the injunction that he and his group of job stealing lackies oppose.

All this blocking and delaying, for what? Its hurt the airline, its hurt the union, and its hurt the employees. Hopefully the court will put an end to these shenanigans.

 

[luvthe9]

One union representing ALL Us Airways pilots...remember? Any deal includes a joint contract and the Nic. If the West enjoys the same "huge" payraise you think you're going to get than so much the better. You will not receive one single, solitary benefit moving fwd. if it is not shared by ALL DUES PAYING MEMBERS. The Company is not dumb enough to start discriminating benefits withing a pilot group. Your first best move to see any benefits for the rest of your career is to drop the lawsuits, accept the Nic. and start negotiating in good faith. I will agree with you on one point, Merging with UAL was probably going to end up a disaster new contract or not. If there is an airline more effed up than US Air it's United.

Metro, I am going to spot you this one, since you claim not to be a pilot here. OK, get real comfortable in that corner office, and get Sharon to bring you some of that fine ALPA coffee....How in Gods' name does the west magically get in on the pay when there is separate ops, and there is seperate pay right now, two different contracts? You are REALLY losing it when you say "the company is not dumb enough to start discriminating benefits withIN a pilot group" This pretty much sums up your lack of sit awareness. Where have you been for the last year? They are already paying two separate pay rates, vacation, rigs, sick and on and on!!! This company and your west buddies have been green lighting this deal all along! This is why the East will absolutely hose the west - because it is just returning the favor! We will throw the west under the very first bus that comes along, because they did it for years and laughed about it. And Parker? He is starting to figure this COC out right now, far later than every other player. 0 and 2. Parker blew his chance long ago. Gee, Hate2fly brought this up long before Parker did in that meeting when you guys first clued in on it and the jaws hit the floor. Parker never thought he would have to deal with it, Guess what? He cannot do a thing if he changes control, that is except PAY THE EAST!

 

[luvthe9]

If the COC is so strong why did the pilots not grieve it and why did the other unions lose the arbitration?

Because you and the West have not figured out yet that there was not a COC in the U AWA merge. It was done with East and outside money, contrary to what the west and you want to believe. You jumped the gun, we didn't. This time, if it is UAL, it is a COC.

 

[luvthe9]

If this latest story is confirmed to be true, usapa has risked dire consequences. By the behavior displayed, usapa has admitted that their official position is the Nic, and that their official position, regarding their official position, is to do everything in their power to get out of their official position. A completely Seehamesque line of circular logic. They are saying, we are not opposed to the Nic, as long as we can oppose the Nic. Well newflash usapa, not only have you failed the West, you have grossly failed the top 1000 east pilots in your latest escapade.

When the damages trial starts, I cannot wait to see how Cleary explains to the court, that he had an injunction telling him how to negotiate with the company, yet failed to do that for fear that it would impose the injunction that he and his group of job stealing lackies oppose.

Grasping at straws, more empty threats. You are going to see some real interesting issues with Parker and the COC. Far more important and real than your Fantasy Trial.

 

[luvthe9]

Nice hypothetical, now go check the facts.

Here comes more spin. You are dead wrong on this, like your other posts. It was East money, Republic, Wisc. and others. We have read all of it. Veritas- roll out the link.........these guys don't ever get it

 

[luvthe9]

Right. If I'm in need of so much schooling on this why is it that USAPA ran off to the 9th to make fools of themselves (or confirm their status as such) by filing an emergency request for a stay of the injunction? Seems to me that if USAPA thought the US/UA merger was not good for the east pilots they would have walked away from the executive meeting and issued a statement saying they opposed management's plan. Perhaps a nice US Today ad would have been in order. But no, they burned pavement to try and move the merger along as long as DOH was an option - which it never was.

I'm perfectly aware of the process and who we are dealing with at USAPA. I would think they would be running out of feet to shoot themselves in pretty soon.

Calloway, they met with Parker and talked the COC. Parker wanted it OK'd and then deal later. The answer, NO. Gee, I wonder why? Lets' see, LOA 93 pay and on and on. Your leader is not too smart when it comes to merging. He thinks he can hammer us for years, then play nice., and we WANT to merge with UAL and alpa.?The alpa part is one of the most distasteful issues.

 

[luvthe9]

That part you got right, the rest...not so much.



Doesn't matter who raises the money.



"Stacking" the BOD with "East shills" would have constituted a CoC. That's why less than half the BOD represented the outside investors.



A group of people (investors) acting in unison for a common purpose, can constitute a CoC just as much as another airline buying US. The key is "acting in unison for a common purpose" - if they get together and decide to pool their money to buy an airline, it's a CoC. If they individually decide to invest some money hoping for a profit (or to have a place to fly their CRJ's in the case of Air Wisconsin) it doesn't constitute a CoC.

Some on the East side seem to focus on only the part of Parker's statement that said that there couldn't be a merger without changing the CoC language and forget the other part - or a merger wouldn't trigger the CoC language. As I've said before, one need look no further than the US/HP merger to see how relatively easy it is to structure a merger that doesn't run afoul of the CoC language. Especially so since any merger would almost certainly be a stock swap transaction.

Jim

Not as easy as you think Boeing Boy. This is a very simplistic answer. Why did Parker react the way he did if he could go around it so easily? If he could, he would, and jammed it to USAPA in the process to show his power. He knows the real meaning of COC, and knows he was up against it. Had he been able to blow through it, had absolutely would have, right with the dealmakers. He can't. You are out of your area here.