US Pilots labor thread 5/3-

[fr8tmastr]

Conclusion: Kirby is greater than LOA93 (current rates). The only way for east pilots to get better wages than the LOA93 rates while USAPA is the CBA is to accept Kirby and the NIC. Rejecting Kirby mean less take home pay than has already been offered. Your claim that the east pilots want more than the Kirby proposal while still supporting USAPA defies logic and reason. Of course defying sound logic and reasoning resulting in money flowing out of pilots’ pockets rather than into them is what USAPA and its supporters do best.

I heard that Tempe has said that if only if the pilots would bring ALPA back he would give us all tremendous raises, with a major improvement in QOL. If only the pilots would realize that the only reason the company was not throwing money our way was because of USAPA things would improve so much. Yea I know, some people think the fact that gas is going up, and the recession, with all the national debt and unemployment is playing a part in our not being able to get raises. And some people even think that Tempe has $$ millions of reasons for not giving us all our much deserved raises, they are all delusional!
If only we could get rid of USAPA, yea that's the ticket.

 

[CallawayGolf]

I heard that Tempe has said that if only if the pilots would bring ALPA back he would give us all tremendous raises, with a major improvement in QOL. If only the pilots would realize that the only reason the company was not throwing money our way was because of USAPA things would improve so much. Yea I know, some people think the fact that gas is going up, and the recession, with all the national debt and unemployment is playing a part in our not being able to get raises. And some people even think that Tempe has $$ millions of reasons for not giving us all our much deserved raises, they are all delusional!
If only we could get rid of USAPA, yea that's the ticket.

The paradox is that the company desires to give the pilots a new and better contract than what they have now but the "union" that represents the pilots wants nothing to do with a new and better contract. This is just another example of the pathological disease that is USAPA.

 

[traderjake]

The west would ratify LOA 93 if it contained the Nic.

If you believe that then you've never talked to a West pilot. They go to work to get paid.

What is true is that a large number of East F/O' s would keep LOA 93 forever to avoid the Nic.

 

[Phoenix]

The west would ratify LOA 93 if it contained the Nic.

I have normally considered you to be a pretty reliable source, but I am aghast that you haven't been consulting with a west pilot (or their chorus members from the east) to be an informed hockey stick grapher.

 

[jetjok1]

ALPA did allow the common folk to vote on LOA 93.

A majority of USAirways pilots voted in favor of LOA 93.

Were you furloughed when that vote took place?

No, I wasn't furloughed, (never have been), I voted NO on LOA 93. Next question?

 

[luvn737s]

Hmmmm... interesting...

US Airways Pilots: We Won't Block Mergers

Thoughts?

"Honest injun we won't" heh, heh, heh.

 

[767jetz]

Someone else started a thread about "getting things done" and by the time I finished my response it was closed. This is probably the best place or that discussion anyway...

While I respect the idea behind that thread, and I certainly see how the pilot's problem affects the entire company and employees, it is difficult to for non-pilots to influence what's going on at this point since the die has already been cast. The idea of "getting it done" sounds terrific. The problem is that most will tell you that "it's already been done" but it it hasn't been sealed with a contract. Now it is tied up in courts with endless appeals and law suits. There are no "do-overs" provided in the process.

There are really only 3 probable ways the feud will end, each being out of the pilots control. 1) forced resolution by the courts 2) management throwing enough money at the problem to make it go away. - probably not enough money available for that. 3) a merger or fragmentation that could actually trigger a do-over or partial do-over.

The 4th way is for one side to give up. But that is not likely.

The biggest error, that has now been corrected by Delta, and next United, is the negotiation of a Joint Contract FIRST. Once a seniority list is determined through negotiation, mediation, or arbitration, it can only take effect with a ratified joint contract. If you wait to do the contract until after the seniority list is final, those unhappy with the results can delay forever. But if you already have a joint contract, everything becomes effective immediately upon the new seniority list being certified. This is an even bigger motivation for pilots to compromise because once it's done it's done.

USAirways and your pilot troubles are in uncharted waters and the process has to play out. While I too wish for things to just get done since I have friends who are affected by the whole mess, there is little anyone else can do about it. It is unfortunate for all the employees of US.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Yes, it's always unfortunate when professionals refuse to abide by their agreements. I can't imagine exchanging honor and integrity in return for lower wages and the complete loss of self respect.

 

[Freebird]

"The issue de jour of smear is this: I have now been accused of perpetrating the most heinous of acts that a union member could, of being a strike breaker. This is categorically not true. Here’s what did happen. In early 2003, I was a furloughed US Airway’s pilot. In January of that year, I interviewed and began training for a job at a company called Freedom Airlines, received my CRJ type rating on March 27th, and received a termination letter in early May for refusing to fly the line. " the latest from a Mr. Crimi campaign email.

Wow. Looks like the East does have some unsavory pilots; who actually chose to admit it.

So, he took a flying job....that Mesa pilots were refusing to do for the pay. Crimi steps in a takes a Type Rating/Captains seat? Where is thy Honor Crimi?

 

[ebwgs]

Posted by Kittyhawk in another thread:

"I'm starting this thread to start a discussion among the rest of the groups to express how they feel over this embarassing and very public fued between our pilots (and to a lesser degree, our FAs). I understand the west view of how the east ignored binding arbitration, fired ALPA and started a new representation, in hopes of getting Nicolau overturned. I also understand the east view of date of hire is the fairest way to approach the transition, no pilot wants to sit right seat to a person that was in diapers when he/she started with the company. Pilots in the industry are ofter looked at as leaders, instrumental in setting the standard for the rest of the employee groups. US pilots are viewed as fighting siblings and cry babies, unable to meet as professionals to discuss there differences and find common ground.

We, as in the rest of the company, ask that you put your differences aside, start fresh, and come up with a solution that you can live with. GET IT DONE!!! If you continue to shove Nicolau down the throats of the east and seniority down the throats of the west than you will be fighting this until the attrition moves the majority of the current pilot staff out, and that will be decades away. Stop this us vs them attitude, it is not good for your careers or the rest of us at USAirways who want to have some pride in our jobs. And stop using the company as a reason for lack of progress, if the company has been successful in keeping the pilots from uniting, than shame on you for letting it happen."




Nice job. I really hope this feud is on it's way to resolution. The time has come for us all to move on. This may be a pilot thread, but we're all every bit as invested in resolving this as the children of both the east and west pilots who need to be fed, educated, and raised in a relatively secure home that affords them the opportunity to go to good schools, make lifelong friends, and to engage in the kind of extra curricular activities that will prepare them for college, which in turn will prepare them for a better life. For those of us outside of the pilot group, many of us also have children that we're trying to raise and to educate, and to provide with the same life enriching experiences, as well as the wives and husbands and significant others who tentatively look to us all with their fingers collectively crossed in the hope that, through their undying support and unfettered hope, they too will be able to exhale and revel in the fresh oxygen of labor peace and the and the relative tranquility of workplace stability.

We're all deeply invested here. Everybody has a lot to lose, perhaps some more than others, but we need to move on. When I think of all who are invested in this company today, from the newborn baby to the newly retired, I hope that this dispute is resolved so that we can stand up as a workforce and once again offer a product that we can believe in, while believing in each other again as we do so. Those outsiders who want us to fail are essentially consigning failure to our families as well as to our futures. We don't have to like each other while standing together, but, like it or not: We must stand together.

Work it out folks. There are too many folks out here--whom we may love more than ourselves--who have a stake in the outcome. We've stood apart for five years. The time for resolution has come. And that time is now.

 

[Al Legheny]

"The issue de jour of smear is this: I have now been accused of perpetrating the most heinous of acts that a union member could, of being a strike breaker. This is categorically not true. Here’s what did happen. In early 2003, I was a furloughed US Airway’s pilot. In January of that year, I interviewed and began training for a job at a company called Freedom Airlines, received my CRJ type rating on March 27th, and received a termination letter in early May for refusing to fly the line. " the latest from a Mr. Crimi campaign email.

Wow. Looks like the East does have some unsavory pilots; who actually chose to admit it.

So, he took a flying job....that Mesa pilots were refusing to do for the pay. Crimi steps in a takes a Type Rating/Captains seat? Where is thy Honor Crimi?

This is a real problem. If Steve's timeline is correct then he is at odds with the ALPA executive committee and the US Airways MEC at that time.


November 1, 2002
Air Transport and Cargo

Mesa Air Group’s designs for a new non-union subsidiary to fly its planned fleet of 64- and 84-
seat jets continues to face stiff resistance from the powers that be within the Air Line Pilots
Association, starting with none other than ALPA president Duane Woerth. The union’s top official
traveled to Farmington, N.M., in late September to “educate” pilots training at Mesa’s ab-initio flight
academy about the perceived evils of Freedom Airlines, scheduled to start service from Phoenix to Los
Angeles International Airport and Long Beach, Calif., late last month. Although Woerth denied that
ALPA would “blackball” pilots who choose to fly for Freedom Airlines, the ALPA president left little
doubt about the union’s attitude toward those who do.
“As a pilot you can either lower the standard or raise it,” said Woerth, according to a report in the
Farmington Daily Times. “You don’t reward bad behavior. Are we going to blacklist? No. But this is a
small community.” Student attitudes ranged from staunchly pro-union to what many within the
established pilot fraternity consider purely mercenary. But with little opportunity to find work within
the traditional union track, the guarantee of 300 flying hours at Freedom Airlines has drawn interest
from hungry pilots who, during better times, wouldn’t dare risk the consequences of wearing the
“scab” label.


From the Dec 18, 2002 US Airways mainline code-a-phone:

The MEC directed the MEC officers and Negotiating Committee to inform US Airways
management that the MEC ... objects to any potential or contemplated code sharing
arrangement with Freedom Air unless its pilots are represented by ALPA. The US Airways
MEC supports the actions of ALPA International Executive Council and Executive Board in
opposing the formation of Freedom Air as a non-union entity, and directed that all furloughed
US Airways pilots be notified of the Executive Board, Executive Council and MEC’s opposition
to Freedom Air. Any pilot on the US Airways seniority list that accepts employment with
Freedom Air will lose all US Airways MEC-sponsored ALPA privileges, including but
not limited to jumpseat, health insurance, web access, furlough administrator access,
and ALPA-provided job search programs. If applicable, the US Airways MEC will file
Article VIII charges against any US Airways seniority list pilot accepting or remaining in
employment with Freedom Air after February 1, 2003, for engaging in action detrimental to
the Association.

The time line shown by these documents don't seem to match up with Steve's story.

 

[Metroyet]

Steve Crimi's decision to go to Freedom Airlines and destroy the Unions leverage to get a better contract is absolutely reprehensible. The Freedom Airlines thing was the closest thing to crossing a picket line since UAL's 1985 debacle. It speaks volumes about Steve Crimi and USAPA that parasites like him are allowed anywhere near a leadership position in a union...even a fake union like USAPA. I don't believe what he says at all about getting fired. It's irrelevant anyway. I hardly trust what someone like Steve Crimi says. His word is useless. He's proven he has no integrity, honor, or moral compass. IOW, he's a perfect fit for USAPA. No wonder he's so highly endorsed by the AFOC.

 

[Pi brat]

Someone else started a thread about "getting things done" and by the time I finished my response it was closed. This is probably the best place or that discussion anyway...

While I respect the idea behind that thread, and I certainly see how the pilot's problem affects the entire company and employees, it is difficult to for non-pilots to influence what's going on at this point since the die has already been cast. The idea of "getting it done" sounds terrific. The problem is that most will tell you that "it's already been done" but it it hasn't been sealed with a contract. Now it is tied up in courts with endless appeals and law suits. There are no "do-overs" provided in the process.

There are really only 3 probable ways the feud will end, each being out of the pilots control. 1) forced resolution by the courts 2) management throwing enough money at the problem to make it go away. - probably not enough money available for that. 3) a merger or fragmentation that could actually trigger a do-over or partial do-over.

The 4th way is for one side to give up. But that is not likely.

The biggest error, that has now been corrected by Delta, and next United, is the negotiation of a Joint Contract FIRST. Once a seniority list is determined through negotiation, mediation, or arbitration, it can only take effect with a ratified joint contract. If you wait to do the contract until after the seniority list is final, those unhappy with the results can delay forever. But if you already have a joint contract, everything becomes effective immediately upon the new seniority list being certified. This is an even bigger motivation for pilots to compromise because once it's done it's done.

USAirways and your pilot troubles are in uncharted waters and the process has to play out. While I too wish for things to just get done since I have friends who are affected by the whole mess, there is little anyone else can do about it. It is unfortunate for all the employees of US.

Pretty good summation from a pilot on the outside looking in. The sides have taken their positions and I agree that the mostly like solution will come from the courts. Hopefully that will be coming soon.

 

[Richard]

Time for a new thread.