US Pilots Labor Discussion 12/14- OBSERVE THE RULES OF THE BOARD!

[luvn737s]

Now were talking! Without a union there is no more seniority! Get it west? You see, you guys out west just can't win, this is the plan b I be talking about. We are laying the groundwork to get rid of usapa if wake rules against us. Without a union the injunction goes bye bye, seniority goes bye bye and negotiations won't exist. At that point, who do you think Parker will listen too? The biggest voice. And who would that be? THE EAST!

See how our thinking works out east? DO you now understand that your victory from a biased court is hollow? You guys will never see the benefits of Nicolau and you have yourselfs to thank since you fail to negotiate.

Huh? There are many non-union carriers who utilize a seniority system. The company will do what is easiest for them and that is get past the seniority integration using the least-risk process - using the Nicolau award. They have firm legal footing to do so and by getting the integration behind them, they can go forward with any other ambitions thay might have.

I agree that the company would likely not negotiate and if necessary they would make pay cuts. But they know that the airline is not likely to remain permanently non-union and they will eventually have to negotiate with a divided pilot group. The up side for the company is that there would never be a strike vote, but the downside is that negotiations would be pointless since there would be at least a couple of automatic vote-downs just to get that out of the east system.

Going non-union simply unbundles the Nic Award to a contract vote and that is ultimately what it will take to move forward.

And for the life of me, I can't see how the thinking out east works. If they would acknowledge that the seniority integration battle is done, they could have their union and a contract and a future with some sense of security. Instead, we all must go through the painful process of eliminating the single roadblock to integration and a future: USAPA (more precisely Cleary and his fear mongering).

If someone would point out some names of east pilots who have promoted a pro-unification platform and provide proof that this platform had widespread support, then I would say there is some hope of salvaging USAPA.

Absent that, it's time to flee this burning circus tent. DC seems to have come to that understanding.

 

[HPDriver]

Bite your tongue man! Let me be straight with you. ALL OF US will walk away from this union if we don't get what we want! GET IT? NYCBUsdriver said it best above. Read his post.
Chatter up!

YAWN! <_<

 

[HPDriver]

ALL OF US will walk away from this union if we don't get what we want! GET IT?

Enjoy the street!

GET IT?

 

[HPDriver]

You guys need a serious wakeup. The line guy is not really sweating all the intricacies of USAPA HQ. All we give a crap about is NEVER combining with you, OK? As long as we never vote on a combined TA, we are cool with pretty much anything that goes on there. Who really has the straight story anyway? The bottom line is this- you guys think you are going to come in here with a guy who was in elementary school when I was hired, and place him on top of me, and thousands like me. I say this- it ain't gonna happen. I certainly would not have the cojones to go on top of some TWA or Pan Am pilot hired 15 yrs head of me no matter what some old geezer said if I was applying there or merged with them as a new hire in the early eighties. I just would not expect it, nor take it if it was offered.It isn't right. It was a windfall. You guys are the spawn of some next gen strangeness that entitles you to everything in the world. I like Dave C, but I really don't know what happened.I really don't care, but thank him for his time. Obviously there was a disagreement. It ain't the end or USAPA or the world, as much as you think or want it to be. I know this- I am a standard line driver, and have been an ALPA member until recently for 30 some yrs. They totally lost their way with selling us out. therefore they were replaced. Simple as that. Nicolau was the last and final straw. Snap this- you pretty much sum up why we really don't care what happens to you, and don't want anything to do with you- much less count on you to even to begin to call minimums or do a walk around. It is all about keeping us down, and never doing anything to even begin to get any parity. We tried with the profit sharing, and you threw us under the bus. Thank you. Now we know how you stand, and will deal with you. I will make sure to get this posted with all the senior guys to show them what the junior guys face. It is worth a NO vote on any deal just to let you guys know how we feel about you in the final hour. You seriously underestimate us with your X Box mentality. Who cares about what is going down with a bunch of politicians anyhow? The final deal is this- you get the NO vote on any deal which allows the combination of the two pilot groups. That my friends, is PRICELESS............

Blah, blah, blah, with some waaaah thrown in.

Typical east barking with no bite to back it up.

THAT, my friends, is PRICELESS.............

 

[ableoneable]

The bottom line is this- you guys think you are going to come in here with a guy who was in elementary school when I was hired, and place him on top of me, and thousands like me. I say this- it ain't gonna happen. I certainly would not have the cojones to go on top of some TWA or Pan Am pilot hired 15 yrs head of me no matter what some old geezer said if I was applying there or merged with them as a new hire in the early eighties. I just would not expect it, nor take it if it was offered.It isn't right. It was a windfall. You guys are the spawn of some next gen strangeness that entitles you to everything in the world. -Blah Blah Whine, deleted for brevity-

So being older is the definition of seniority (unless you are referencing G. Nicolau, who is termed an "old geezer"). You keep saying that a west captain staying senior to an east F.O. or even a furloghee is a windfall. Why should I downgrade to the right seat so some "old geezer" furloughee can "take" from me? You think that a furloughed pilot, who was recalled only as a result of the merger, should suddenly be made senior to hundreds of west captains and this is not a windfall but is just. It seems to me that you must be part of an "out of touch old geezer" generation that thinks they are entitled to take seats from west pilots because they "earned it" by being older. You are deluded.

Snap this- you pretty much sum up why we really don't care what happens to you, and don't want anything to do with you- much less count on you to even to begin to call minimums or do a walk around. It is all about keeping us down, and never doing anything to even begin to get any parity. -More whining and stomping here, then-

You seriously underestimate us with your X Box mentality. Who cares about what is going down with a bunch of politicians anyhow? The final deal is this- you get the NO vote on any deal which allows the combination of the two pilot groups. That my friends, is PRICELESS............

Yes, you don't care what happens to us. Considering you have been trying to mug us that is less than a surprise.

We are stalemated and will likely remain that way for quite a while.

You had better pray every night that we don't end up merging again. - It is likely that when airline X asks for a seniority list with which to merge they well be supplied with the arbitrated seniority list.

It will probably take a court order to facilitate but that will probably be the easy part.

 

[nic4us]

The bottom line is this- you guys think you are going to come in here with a guy who was in elementary school when I was hired, and place him on top of me, and thousands like me.

I say this- it ain't gonna happen.

Some years ago, as a young captain, we were flying along and the F/O asks my age, I tell him and he says, " I started flying airplanes when you were 14 years old!" I simply replied, "really, that is interesting, I started flying airplanes when I was 10 years old."

Point is, you are correct, we are not going to come in here with a guy who was in elementary school when you were hired and place him on top of you in the seniority list. We are going to go to a neutral third party arbitrator, and watch as he places all those pilots who hold positions and status senior to yours, on top of you on the seniority list. We are not going to let you decide what is and is not fair, and/or take the jobs of those who are senior to you, even if they happen to be younger.

Not only will it happen, it already has.

 

[nic4us]

QUOTE DELETED BY MODERATOR FOR PROFANITY


Protecting what?

Protecting flying, that by all rights belongs to all USAirways pilots according to their seniority?

Under usapa's DOH plan with C&R's I am stripped of any future I would have had at USAirways, and it is given to pilots who were furloughed at the time of the merger while I was a line holding Captain. I become stagnant or move backwards, for the duration of my carreer, while thousands of east pilot enjoy upward mobility, at me and my fellow West pilots expense.

usapa wishes to take from the West, and to state otherwise is pure bs. Bradford said it on tape before a live audience, "yes, I would rather see former West captains furloughed prior to any east pilot."

You post is full of BS, what you should say is "no east pilot will ever take your seat" that we do not believe you are entitled to have before we get a turn with it.

 

[cleardirect]

QUOTE DELETED BY MODERATOR FOR PROFANITY


It is your theory how about you prove your point that PHX is losing money? Could you supply the 2008, 2009 profit sheets broken down by base? So other than your opinion what evidence do you have that PHX will close?
Taking you at your word that PHX will close and the west pilots will be scattered to the east just how does usapa’s wonderful DOH with base protections help the west? Now a senior captain is forced into PHL and every upgrade until he retires becomes senior to him. Nice lifestyle, nice windfall. Your arguments don’t hold up.

Kind of hard to justify your position when it is LGA, BOS and LAS that are closing not PHX. BTW during that last snow storm which hub was still moving people?

 

[HPDriver]

QUOTE DELETED BY MODERATOR FOR PROFANITY


Dude,

How can you educate us when you yourself do not understand how this works.

Its done! End of story.

VNIIMN until you turn blue. Its not going to make a difference.

And I already know of a few east guys ready to come out here. In fact, there were so arrogant easties who came out here looking for property just after the merger was announced. I know of one east guy who lost his butt on a house in Anthem. Wanted to work from where he was going to retire.

So please, spare us your BS.

 

[cleardirect]

Now were talking! Without a union there is no more seniority! Get it west? You see, you guys out west just can't win, this is the plan b I be talking about. We are laying the groundwork to get rid of usapa if wake rules against us. Without a union the injunction goes bye bye, seniority goes bye bye and negotiations won't exist. At that point, who do you think Parker will listen too? The biggest voice. And who would that be? THE EAST!

See how our thinking works out east? DO you now understand that your victory from a biased court is hollow? You guys will never see the benefits of Nicolau and you have yourselfs to thank since you fail to negotiate.

Bite your tongue man! Let me be straight with you. ALL OF US will walk away from this union if we don't get what we want! GET IT? NYCBUsdriver said it best above. Read his post.
Chatter up!

Now here is an interest rant. It appears that reality might be setting in on the east this sounds very desperate.

So no seniority, jungle rules for everything? That 190 fo wants to fly as 330 captain, no seniority he just does it, nice system you thought of. Get rid of usapa who cares? BTW Wake has already ruled against you and the ninth is about to rule against you too.

Who do you think Parker will listen to? The group that he has worked with and knows he can work with and will move airplanes or the group that could cause the destruction of his little gig? The older group that is a pain in his posterior or the group that does the job? With no union, no contract, no protection who is he going to dump out the door without a thought or worry?

Now this needs repeating:

You guys will never see the benefits of Nicolau and you have yourselves to thank since you fail to negotiate.

ALL OF US will walk away from this union if we don't get what we want!

How is it that you want the west to negotiate but then demand that you get what you want or you burn the place to the ground could it be that attitude that got all of you in this place to start with? You sure seem to think that you speak for a lot of people. “ALL OF USâ€￾ Done any surveys? Just how many pilots are willing to walk away from this job if YOU don’t get what YOU want? I think you may find yourself in a very short line.

 

[nic4us]

OK now Nic4us how about you Clear.................tell us how profitable PHX is tell us it is the mecca of business growth out West........tell us but for PHX we would be losing even MORE money.
PHX is all you got, a transition with min fleet is all you got. If you ain't sceered, you oughta be.

It will sure as hell take something MORE than a vote to get one list. Count on it. Don't know who you talk to but this 82 hire WILL never vote for NIC. Do not personally know of a soul who thinks differently. If you didn't buy that rocking chair and get comfy like I told you so 8 months ago it's your fault.

Your post tweeked me enough that I have to offer another reply.

I will not try and tell you how profitable PHX is, or what growth comes from out West.

What I will tell you is I am not "sceered" and .....but for PHX your 82 hire date would have been as meaningless as your attempted threatening post.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

Just an outsider with a quick question.

For the last several weeks I've read an increasing number of post concerning the end of USAPA from both East and West posters.


The East position seems fairly straight forward, a dissolution of the union.

The West position is where my question comes. Several West posters talk of the end of USAPA but they seem to take distinctive differences in how the end is to come about. Some talk of what could best be described as a regime change, the other seems to be alluding to another union election and the decertification of USAPA. The majority of posters (from both sides) have standing issues with ALPA, so if a new union is the course being alluded to, which union is there talk of bringing in?

 

[HPDriver]

Just an outsider with a quick question.

For the last several weeks I've read an increasing number of post concerning the end of USAPA from both East and West posters.


The East position seems fairly straight forward, a dissolution of the union.

The West position is where my question comes. Several West posters talk of the end of USAPA but they seem to take distinctive differences in how the end is to come about. Some talk of what could best be described as a regime change, the other seems to be alluding to another union election and the decertification of USAPA. The majority of posters (from both sides) have standing issues with ALPA, so if a new union is the course being alluded to, which union is there talk of bringing in?

I've heard that Cleary is courting the IBT to use as a potential exit strategy when things go south.

Personally, I'd rather see USAPA stay as I see no other options. I'm not a fan of ALPA and it costs alot of money to start another in-house. I think, at this point, many on both side are burned out with giving away there money. More so on the east with Cleary running his country club.

Either way, the USAPA that was voted in almost two years ago is fading away, and fading fast.

 

[OTTER574]

QUOTE DELETED BY MODERATOR FOR PROFANITY


Old aviation saying, excluding a corrupt union/usapa.."be nice to your first officer because someday he may be your captain."

Already happened twice (2) in my 28 years/22,000 + hours and four (4) union air carriers career.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Huh? There are many non-union carriers who utilize a seniority system. The company will do what is easiest for them and that is get past the seniority integration using the least-risk process - using the Nicolau award. They have firm legal footing to do so and by getting the integration behind them, they can go forward with any other ambitions thay might have.

I agree that the company would likely not negotiate and if necessary they would make pay cuts. But they know that the airline is not likely to remain permanently non-union and they will eventually have to negotiate with a divided pilot group. The up side for the company is that there would never be a strike vote, but the downside is that negotiations would be pointless since there would be at least a couple of automatic vote-downs just to get that out of the east system.

Going non-union simply unbundles the Nic Award to a contract vote and that is ultimately what it will take to move forward.

And for the life of me, I can't see how the thinking out east works. If they would acknowledge that the seniority integration battle is done, they could have their union and a contract and a future with some sense of security. Instead, we all must go through the painful process of eliminating the single roadblock to integration and a future: USAPA (more precisely Cleary and his fear mongering).

If someone would point out some names of east pilots who have promoted a pro-unification platform and provide proof that this platform had widespread support, then I would say there is some hope of salvaging USAPA.

Absent that, it's time to flee this burning circus tent. DC seems to have come to that understanding.

I am looking at the West play book now and we are formulating a new plan "B".

First, it will take several months for the appeal to play out. No CBA.

Second, appeal to Supreme Court. No CBA.

Thirdly, if the anti-union Leonidas and the anti-union law firm succeed, the bankruptcy and dissolution of USAPA. No CBA. No Nicolau, no LOA 93, No transition agreement. EMPLOYMENT AT WILL.

I DISAGREE with you on THIS POINT: The least risk prcess is for the company to keep the government out of the process, They've been to the Supreme Court once and received a favorable ruling regading seniority there...the company uses DOH for non-rev travel for ALL employees, the company uses DOH for promotion and furlough with all employees, the NICOLAU award CANNOT GO INTO EFFECT WITHOUT A UNION VOTE under the terms of the transition agreement (union created), so if the union disappears....no Transition agreement, NO AWARD!

In short, they have NO REASONABLE AND COMPELLING ISSUE that resolves giving you greater treatment for your years of service over mine. NONE! And there is where we find OUR protection....AGE/LONGEVITY discrimination. Remember, the company MUST have a good reason to integrate the pilots who are in the same craft or class by something other than what PAST PRACTICE and other employee groups have.

We then, Fourthly, form an LLC with a charter that protects the East pilots adversely affected by any seniority descision by the company implimenting a seniority system that all the other employee groups use by filing an EEOC claim as a class action group of pilots affected by disparate treatment.

Remeber, a seniority system in a union can have some disparate treatment if, as a whole, the majority have a vested outcome (majority vote). Here, an EEOC claim- a legally STATUTORY FEDERAL RIGHT (as opposed to a union process..aka nicolau) - IS a protected right as disparate treatment if:

All other employees use a DOH seniority system

Some employees (517) got their DOH which is normal treatment by the company for all employees
Some employees (1500 West pilots) got greater treatment by the company for SOME employees
Some employees (3000 East pilots) got LESSOR treatment by the company for THESE employees

The EEOC is our only protection and we intend to use it. At this point in time, I would say that the U in Union has be removed by US Airways (lucky for them) AND by an anti-labor corporation and that we now have an ONION....every slice they take are causing more tears and pain among the pilots that they are shortly going to fractionalize into a situation where the FAA is going to get involved and have to take a side on safety.

The real question is what level of involvement the FAA will do.

In short, the only way to ultimately fix this is the dissolution of the union for pilots at US Airways and form a company run committee similar to what Jet Blue has.

For me, I'm going to the EEOC. Read about it here, EAST PILOTS! Remember, this can be your only chance to get your FEDERALLY PROTECTED RIGHTS.

http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/age.cfm
http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/age.cfm
http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/equalcompensation.cfm
http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/practices/index.cfm