US Pilots labor thread 4/17-

[traderjake]

Fact. Separate ops until a combined contract.

Fact. LOA 93 pay rates for us until a combined contract.

I go to work to get paid. Why do you?

 

[traderjake]

The west ignorance of the east pilot groups mindset is startling. Truly.

The ignorant mindset of the east pilot group is truly startling.

 

[cactusboy53]

Nice, tell Joe on the street how much money you spent on your lottery tickets, and they will give you a strange look, one you deserve. Wow, double gold. The David Koresh level. I remember when all those poor people were giving the Rev. Jim Baker all their money too, for the ticket to heaven. The only bank door you are going to see is the one where you have to go for the loan after you spent all your free cash on rabid lawyers, and a defunct army. Wait till the bill comes for Anthem Community Tech, and your wife hands it to you. That is the school where they teach you guys how to sell pool cleaner after you prevented USAirways from a life saving merger and the place shut down. This thing goes on and on, and the lawyers get richer and richer. I have got a great brand - Aquagreen Pool Cleaner.

Wow. That is an awful lot of spittle & spite for one little post.

Our "Joe the Pilots" that were furloughed out of seniority are hanging in there. Many of them meet or exceed my level of contribution to Leonidas. I still manage to to tithe, send money to missionaries....and yet I will also be able to pay for my son's college that starts this fall.

This thing will only go on until the court system forces you to comply. You are right. The lawyers get rich. The difference is our legal team has been forthright pertaining to our chances of victory. They have been good counsel & good friends.

Have a wonderful day.

 

[TheBadCat1313]

According to Unbiasedfacts:


Media reports indicate US Airways and United began this round of merger negotiations in
February. Pilots close to USAPA have told Unbiased Facts that USAPA’s inaction and
representational paralysis are the primary reasons the United – US Airways merger discussions
collapsed. Many believe United’s ultimate goal was to create a three-*‐way deal with United
acquiring US Airways to seek merger financial synergies while keeping United’s significant alliance
benefits with Continental intact.
US Airways and United had reached agreement on virtually all key merger issues except for the US
Airways Pilot’s Change of Control clause and the legal battle over the Nicolau Award between pre-*‐
merger US Airways and America West pilots.
Executives from the two companies recognized the Change of Control provision, without union
relief, required the deal to be structured in a fashion that would require US Airways to acquire
United. However, United CEO Glenn Tilton and the company’s Investment Bankers became
uncomfortable with this financial option because they felt it would be difficult for US Airways to
obtain the financial resources required to satisfy United’s shareholders because the larger United’s
market capitalization was three times that of US Airways.
US Airways CEO Doug Parker, too, fully understood the contractual requirements of the change of
control provisions, obligating US Airways to be the acquiring airline or face grossly non-*‐
competitive contractual costs. On March 17, at the conclusion of a CLT Crew News Session, Parker
raised the topic because the Change of Control provision, if triggered, would snap back East pilot
wages to 2000 Parity II levels, where East narrowbody Captains could earn about $260,000 and
First Officers could earn about $170,000 per year, respectively.
Parker told the pilots "We've had talks with airlines in the past. This always comes up. (It) is a large
issue in consolidation talks. There will not be a merger if that's where the pay rates go. Anybody we
would merge with can't let the pay rates go to those levels. You can't have both. You can't have a
merger with that provision. (It) will either result in a merger never being done or it will be a
merger that doesn't trigger that provision."
For more information on the Change of Control provision read the following article:
http://www.unbiasedfacts.org/ChangeO...Provisions.pdf
With merger negotiations nearly complete and the deal scheduled to be announced on Monday,
April 26, Parker met with USAPA president Mike Cleary and vice president Randy Mowrey on
Sunday, April 11. Parker reportedly told the union officers that a merger with United was nearly
complete, but the deal could not proceed unless the pilot seniority integration problem was
immediately solved and that the company had to have relief on the Change of Control provision. In
exchange for rectifying these two merger obstacles, management reportedly would provide the
pilots a contract consistent with recent major airline mergers.
Where is the union’s self proclaimed transparency and why were the pilots not informed of this
major development, which could provide the pilots much of what was lost in bankruptcy?
USAPA claimed during its campaign to become our bargaining agent that they would be a
transparent union. In their words, there would be no back room deals, no negotiations behind the
members’ backs. To date there has been no communication from USAPA concerning the exact
contents of the meeting between Mr. Parker and the officers.
In response, USAPA chose to not act on the Nicolau Award obstacle or the Change of Control
provision. Instead, three days later, the union filed an Emergency Motion with Ninth Circuit Court
requesting a “stay” at the District Court Damages trial and the Permanent Injunction. In its motion
the union made a stark statement. USAPA said, “A present emergency results from the fact that the
pending injunction will prevent a corporate merger that would create an airline capable of
competing with the recent Delta/Northwest merger. If the pilot seniority integration problem is
not immediately solved this will thwart economic benefits [of the merger] and preservation of jobs
that might accrue to the corporations and employees, including Appellees.
USAPA’s emergency motion was denied by the US Court of Appeals.
The union’s counsel told the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals the proposed US Airways-*‐United
merger was about the “preservation of jobs.” Our union states that negotiations are about taking an
acceptable level of risk on our behalf. Don’t we have a right to know exactly what was risked? Why
hasn’t USAPA told the pilots about the “economic benefits” reportedly offered by the company and
described by the union to the court?
Once USAPA filed this motion both US Airways and United management recognized the leadership
of USAPA was not going to make the politically difficult decision that would be beneficial to the
pilots and all US Airways employees. When Continental then approached United about merging,
United CEO Glenn Tilton, at the urging of his unions, agreed to begin merger talks with Continental.
Tilton believed he had no choice but to listen to Continental because there was no basis for a
realistic merger scenario with US Airways due to inability of the pilot’s union to act in its member’s
best interests.
With no merger for the foreseeable future and years of seniority integration battles ahead it seems
that there will be no new contract benefits for US Airways’ pilots. Moreover, there are now
renewed questions about US Airways’ long-*‐term viability as an independent carrier with no
prospect for practical solutions that would mutually benefit the pilots, fellow employees, the
shareholders and management.

 

[Piedmont1984]

The Change of Control language has been in our contract for many years now. Furthermore, USAPA was not the bargaining agent that crafted that particular language.

Mr Parker has been well aware of this provision.

So what does he do? He waits until five minutes to midnight in a major merger scenario to suddenly make an issue of this - and characterizes it as a major impediment to a link up with UAL.

But hey, look how clever he was saving all that cash by not paying the east pilots the same as their counterparts in the west.

What is that saying about pennies and pounds?

 

[CallawayGolf]

The Change of Control language has been in our contract for many years now. Furthermore, USAPA was not the bargaining agent that crafted that particular language.

Mr Parker has been well aware of this provision.

So what does he do? He waits until five minutes to midnight in a major merger scenario to suddenly make an issue of this - and characterizes it as a major impediment to a link up with UAL.

But hey, look how clever he was saving all that cash by not paying the east pilots the same as their counterparts in the west.

What is that saying about pennies and pounds?

Do you think Mr. Parker also knows that USAPA is a bunch of miscreants and anarchists who refuse to act in their own best interest and certainly can’t be trusted to act in someone else’s best interest even if it results in a benefit to them? They didn’t need to go crying to the 9th – real leaders could have worked with management to come to an agreement that would have satisfied the concerns over COC and kept US at the merger table with UA. Such rational and beneficial big-picture thinking is far beyond anything USAPA is capable of.

 

[TBONEJ4J]

If a deal was to be done it would have been done. It may still be done.

The east contract with changes through bankruptcy has been around for almost 12 years. The company knows what's in it.

The talks with United stopping could be due to any number of reasons unrelated to the pilots working agreement.

Belly-aching about the change in control provisions of the east contract are nothing more than an opportunity to attack the contract and the pilots.

Never miss an opportunity to blame the pilots.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Do you think Mr. Parker also knows that USAPA is a bunch of miscreants and anarchists who refuse to act in their own best interest and certainly can’t be trusted to act in someone else’s best interest even if it results in a benefit to them? They didn’t need to go crying to the 9th – real leaders could have worked with management to come to an agreement that would have satisfied the concerns over COC and kept US at the merger table with UA. Such rational and beneficial big-picture thinking is far beyond anything USAPA is capable of.

First, I think you just spouted a bunch of anti-USAPA boilerplate.

Second, I think neither you nor I know the full story.

 

[ROACLT]

Since the leaders represent by bases, it is a protection in the East contract, the East pilots through their base reps ought to tell Parker a industry standard raise and a fix to the seniority problem, i.e. no NIC is the cost of COC language. Then its up to him. If he is a smart guy, he could find a suitor for the West like Republic, or go to the courthouse and say US Airways needs to be able to freely negotiate seniority as a party to any contract or whatever. Beyond notifying Parker of the cost of relinquishing a negotiated protection that was paid for by over a billion a year in concessions, USAPA ought not do a single thing. If the East pilots feel magnanimous, since it is their contract and it was their concessions that paid the cost of that protection, maybe they will let him off the hook for 500 million a year in pay and seniority fixes and get back half of what they gave up. Quid pro quo.

 

[hp_fa]

According to Unbiasedfacts:

With merger negotiations nearly complete and the deal scheduled to be announced on Monday,
April 26, Parker met with USAPA president Mike Cleary and vice president Randy Mowrey on
Sunday, April 11. Parker reportedly told the union officers that a merger with United was nearly
complete, but the deal could not proceed unless the pilot seniority integration problem was
immediately solved and that the company had to have relief on the Change of Control provision. In
exchange for rectifying these two merger obstacles, management reportedly would provide the
pilots a contract consistent with recent major airline mergers.
Where is the union’s self proclaimed transparency and why were the pilots not informed of this
major development, which could provide the pilots much of what was lost in bankruptcy?
USAPA claimed during its campaign to become our bargaining agent that they would be a
transparent union. In their words, there would be no back room deals, no negotiations behind the
members’ backs. To date there has been no communication from USAPA concerning the exact
contents of the meeting between Mr. Parker and the officers.

I hope the East folks are paying attention because I am going to not blast Clear and Mowrey, at least not too much.

The whole merger issue with any labor group is fully dysfunctional when management comes to labor at the very end of the procedure, has the union leaders sign (or otherwise agree to) non-disclosure and then puts them in an untenable situation. The union (any union) is supposedly a democratic organization and to come to the leaders and demand relief without the leaders being able to confer with their fellow leaders, in this case the BPR, or the members places the leaders who are privy to the information is a situation in which there is no reasonable way for the union leaders to accept the company's offer without possibly committing a breach of a fiduciary duty to their members. Plus, in this case, the union was also subject to a permanent injunction, which has likely benefited the company in the form of lower wages to pilots post-merger.

Now, the situation with USAPA is clearly dysfunctional and much of the blame for that does rest with the folks who have, and continue to, reject the Nicolau seniority award. Had they not persisted and settled that issue then Cleary and Mowrey would have possibly had more room to maneuver and not been subject to a permanent injunction limiting their potential actions. Of course Seham lived up to his (low) reputation by filing a meaningless emergency motion in the wrong court.

This situation could have been avoided by earlier leadership by the leaders and the BPR in swallowing the Nicolau award and explaining to the members of USAPA that it is the only way forward in anything other than the short term. Leaders are expected to have the foresight to lead and sometimes that means accepting castor oil before getting to a much sweeter dessert. That is their failure, but Parker coming to them under a supposed nondisclosure and demanding the trade-off that he reportedly demanded was his failure to understand that it was clearly impossible. Had Parker at least made some of the secret information available to the members than perhaps there could have been a different path to resolve the issue, but that clearly was not the case.

 

[luvthe9]

Do you think Mr. Parker also knows that USAPA is a bunch of miscreants and anarchists who refuse to act in their own best interest and certainly can’t be trusted to act in someone else’s best interest even if it results in a benefit to them? They didn’t need to go crying to the 9th – real leaders could have worked with management to come to an agreement that would have satisfied the concerns over COC and kept US at the merger table with UA. Such rational and beneficial big-picture thinking is far beyond anything USAPA is capable of.

You Westies were all over the COC, saying it wasn't going to happen.Parker brought it up from the blue, and you guys were sitting there with stupid looks of denial. Then you went on a big campaign just like the usual spin you put out when you are befuddled. You just don't get it. We had this put in for a reason. A real good reason, and there is nothing you or Parker can do anything about it. And that is just the way we want it. It is a huge lever, and we will use it to the EAST advantage. The west did nothing for the pay parity issue. You had plenty of time and warning about the course you took, and it is going to cost you now. By the way, who wants to merge with UAL anyhow? Parker has screwed this up beyond the pale. First DAL, now UAL. He cannot merge unless he pays the East. Parker has done nothing to raise East pay, why should we even begin to talk with him?If he comes to us?"real leaders would have worked...." A real leader, and a smart one would have not pushed LOA 93 as long as he did, and it is going to be the end of him.The money? It is going to have to be a HUGE number to get a deal, HUGE. Calloway, you and the west are incredibly unschooled about a lot of things, and you are going to be left behind.

 

[cleardirect]

You Westies were all over the COC, saying it wasn't going to happen.Parker brought it up from the blue, and you guys were sitting there with stupid looks of denial. Then you went on a big campaign just like the usual spin you put out when you are befuddled. You just don't get it. We had this put in for a reason. A real good reason, and there is nothing you or Parker can do anything about it. And that is just the way we want it. It is a huge lever, and we will use it to the EAST advantage. The west did nothing for the pay parity issue. You had plenty of time and warning about the course you took, and it is going to cost you now. By the way, who wants to merge with UAL anyhow? Parker has screwed this up beyond the pale. First DAL, now UAL. He cannot merge unless he pays the East. Parker has done nothing to raise East pay, why should we even begin to talk with him?If he comes to us?"real leaders would have worked...." A real leader, and a smart one would have not pushed LOA 93 as long as he did, and it is going to be the end of him.The money? It is going to have to be a HUGE number to get a deal, HUGE. Calloway, you and the west are incredibly unschooled about a lot of things, and you are going to be left behind.

So just how is that CoC working for you so far? What did Parker tell you? Get rid of CoC or get no merger. So you get no merger and no pay raise.

You may think that you have a huge lever but you have no fulcrum to push against. So all you are doing is carrying around a giant weight that has no value.

 

[luvthe9]

I hope the East folks are paying attention because I am going to not blast Clear and Mowrey, at least not too much.

The whole merger issue with any labor group is fully dysfunctional when management comes to labor at the very end of the procedure, has the union leaders sign (or otherwise agree to) non-disclosure and then puts them in an untenable situation. The union (any union) is supposedly a democratic organization and to come to the leaders and demand relief without the leaders being able to confer with their fellow leaders, in this case the BPR, or the members places the leaders who are privy to the information is a situation in which there is no reasonable way for the union leaders to accept the company's offer without possibly committing a breach of a fiduciary duty to their members. Plus, in this case, the union was also subject to a permanent injunction, which has likely benefited the company in the form of lower wages to pilots post-merger.

Now, the situation with USAPA is clearly dysfunctional and much of the blame for that does rest with the folks who have, and continue to, reject the Nicolau seniority award. Had they not persisted and settled that issue then Cleary and Mowrey would have possibly had more room to maneuver and not been subject to a permanent injunction limiting their potential actions. Of course Seham lived up to his (low) reputation by filing a meaningless emergency motion in the wrong court.

This situation could have been avoided by earlier leadership by the leaders and the BPR in swallowing the Nicolau award and explaining to the members of USAPA that it is the only way forward in anything other than the short term. Leaders are expected to have the foresight to lead and sometimes that means accepting castor oil before getting to a much sweeter dessert. That is their failure, but Parker coming to them under a supposed nondisclosure and demanding the trade-off that he reportedly demanded was his failure to understand that it was clearly impossible. Had Parker at least made some of the secret information available to the members than perhaps there could have been a different path to resolve the issue, but that clearly was not the case.

Give me a break! The COC was put in for a reason. Parker knew it, and Doug Mowry probably put it in. They signed it. Guess what, we are going to use it for our interests. The Nic is being rejected every day. Seniority in this fashion don't fly, and Parker knows it better than you. Expect some use of COC that you might find unpalatable. He can't merge with the present situation, and everybody is finally starting to get the power the East has with the COC. Deal with it or be left behind. They did nothing for our pay issues, so payback is a ballbuster sometimes!

 

[luvthe9]

So just how is that CoC working for you so far? What did Parker tell you? Get rid of CoC or get no merger. So you get no merger and no pay raise.

You may think that you have a huge lever but you have no fulcrum to push against. So all you are doing is carrying around a giant weight that has no value.

And here is the spin.......... Clear, Parker is hamstrung. You were all over COC back a month ago, saying it meant nothing. We have got all of you by the short ones.

 

[cleardirect]

Since the leaders represent by bases, it is a protection in the East contract, the East pilots through their base reps ought to tell Parker a industry standard raise and a fix to the seniority problem, i.e. no NIC is the cost of COC language. Then its up to him. If he is a smart guy, he could find a suitor for the West like Republic, or go to the courthouse and say US Airways needs to be able to freely negotiate seniority as a party to any contract or whatever. Beyond notifying Parker of the cost of relinquishing a negotiated protection that was paid for by over a billion a year in concessions, USAPA ought not do a single thing. If the East pilots feel magnanimous, since it is their contract and it was their concessions that paid the cost of that protection, maybe they will let him off the hook for 500 million a year in pay and seniority fixes and get back half of what they gave up. Quid pro quo.

Parker can not "fix the seniority problem" as you say neither can usapa. There is a federal injunction that tells everyone that the Nicolau award will be the seniority.

Keep dreaming of ways to get out of arbitration but it keeps coming back to the same answer, once you agreed to binding arbitration and once the east pilots voted in usapa. There was no where else to go but a contract with Nicolau. You had better start getting used to that list. Any raise is going to have that as part of the deal.