US Pilots labor thread 11/5-

[luvn737s]

We are currently in the Ninth trying to answer some of the truly unique questions brought up by the creation of USAPA and it's relationship/responsibilities to Nic and two pilot groups.

No, you're not.

You're in the Ninth to decide whether or not Judge Wake made any procedural errors worthy of returning the case to his court to correct those errors.

It's your money you're giving to Seham. You should at least know what you're buying.

 

[boeingplt]

No, you're not.

You're in the Ninth to decide whether or not Judge Wake made any procedural errors worthy of returning the case to his court to correct those errors.

or it gets overturned... or it gets tossed for not being ripe ala do over when it is ripe. just keep looking at it through a straw and you'll be fine

 

[nycbusdriver]

Parker says lots of things. You east folks believe him when you want to and don't believe him when you don't want to. There's only one thing to remember, though. He represents the shareholders. Period. End of story.

Yes. You are correct, although only partially so. The west folks do exactly the same thing.

 

[UtterlyUdder]

Glad you liked it.

You must have missed all those comebacks I had for EastUs, Nostrodamus, Pacemaker,et al. Whatever happened to those folks?

Honeychile, I always appreciate a good sense of humor which is something not often shown here by the westies.

By the way, I never miss a thing! I simply think your comebacks to those posters were inane and not humorous. I can't speak for them however they probably got weary of the same ol same ol from you and your cohorts. Actually I should follow their lead and quit reading this forum. h34r: I probably won't go though.

You really ought to develop some new talking points.

I don't think very highly of people who supported a DFR suit filed against a brand new union. No, not highly at all. No matter how you try to frame it, if you have a brother and he is older than you, he is SENIOR to you.

However, I always give the devil his due and your paraphrasing of Omar was really "cute".

 

[cleardirect]

Honeychile, I always appreciate a good sense of humor which is something not often shown here by the westies.

By the way, I never miss a thing! I simply think your comebacks to those posters were inane and not humorous. I can't speak for them however they probably got weary of the same ol same ol from you and your cohorts. Actually I should follow their lead and quit reading this forum. h34r: I probably won't go though.

You really ought to develop some new talking points.

I don't think very highly of people who supported a DFR suit filed against a brand new union. No, not highly at all. No matter how you try to frame it, if you have a brother and he is older than you, he is SENIOR to you.

However, I always give the devil his due and your paraphrasing of Omar was really "cute".

Now you are defining seniority as age. If you are older it makes you senior. Do you want to redo the the list again using age?

You guys really are a moving target.

 

[hp_fa]

or it gets overturned... or it gets tossed for not being ripe ala do over when it is ripe. just keep looking at it through a straw and you'll be fine

The ripeness issue is interesting but in the end I believe it is a loser. The most important document that the CoA will review is Judge Wake's Findings of Fact and Conclusions of Law and Order. That, in essence, is the most important document because all of the other briefs tend to get back to it in one way or another. It also does not, in my opinion, help that USAPA argued both sides of the ripeness issue in its preliminary proceedings before Judge Wake, specifically that the case is both not ripe and overripe. But, that is merely my opinion.

IMO the best shot that USAPA has is in the evidenciary rulings and jury instructions area. Although I still don't believe that they will win on these issues, at least to the point that it gets remanded because of judicial error, the CoA may have some input on what the trial court did and how it did it.

Let's look at the practical side of this mess for a second.

First, there is no way in hell that the CoA will reverse and remand with instructions to dismiss the case. That won't be happening.

Second is the issue of the CoA potentially ordering the removal of the permanent injunction. That is, at best, a long shot. USAPA has made it clear that if there was no injunction they would be immediately negotiating using the seniority list that it favors, DOH with covenants and restrictions. One of the primary reasons that I don't see this as happening is that there is, at law, a preference for resolving disputes outside of the court system. In this case that is arbitration and that arbitration took place within the constitution and bylaws of ALPA, which did at that time represent the two pilot groups. So, if the CoA were to simply lift the injunction it would be a huge retreat from the judical preference and public policy that private arbitrations are to not be subsequently reviewed and revised by a trial court absent extraordinary circumstances that simply are not present in this case.

Since we are, for the purpose of this discussion, thinking outside the box lets think about what would happen if the case were reversed and remanded for some procedural error with instructions to the trial court to remedy the error(s). The case would now be back before Judge Wake, who has since the time of appeal had a change of venue filed with him by USAPA, and they would now be arguing a portion of the case in front of a judge for whom, at best, they have showed disdain. Not a good combination. In the meantime any chance of meaningful contract negotiations again go back to going nowhere. There is no chance that the company would be negotiating any meaningful sections of the contract while the validity of the seniority issues are in the courts. So we have more delay.

As I have said before, the company and the attorneys are the only ones winning in this battle.

Enough for right now. I have to go take care of my post-surgical wife.

 

[UtterlyUdder]

Now you are defining seniority as age. If you are older it makes you senior. Do you want to redo the the list again using age?

You guys really are a moving target.

I am not a guy, thank you very much! How else would you define Date of Hire? Eons ago before all the smoke and mirrors you guys and to whom this may also apply... threw into this, DOH was determined by a person's birthday in relation to those above him/her and those below him/her. To me and many others, that is the true definition of "career expectations." You can change a lot of things but the one thing you can't change is the day you were born.

Time for a National seniority list!

 

[Reed Richards]

Wow, quite a few opinions here HP. I sense a theme, and that would be USAPA gets nothing in the 9th, nada, nil. I believe the worst blow USAPA can sustain right now is status quo, and I am not implying that is a good thing.

My opinion is something will change as a result of this review. I am just not sure what.

Hope your wife is doing well.

RR

 

[Metroyet]

I don't think very highly of people who supported a DFR suit filed against a brand new union. No, not highly at all.

Hysterical. So you look disdainfully at those who have the audacity to know when their rights are being trampled and fight back? I wonder if you feel the same way about the absurd RICO suit?

Perhaps you should consider buying a condo in North Korea where the powerful can crush the innocent with impunity...and there's nothing they can do about it. Cleary can be your roommate.

Sorry your little plan didn't quite work out they way you were promised it would. Brace yourself for more disappointment. We still live in the US and all of those rights, laws and liberties you find so disgusting will still be working against your oh-so-pure, virginal, "brand new" union that was formed solely for the common good of the working man.

 

[HPDriver]

I don't think very highly of people who supported a DFR suit filed against a brand new union.

Wow, what a coincidence! I don't think highly of you!

Amazing!

 

[UtterlyUdder]

Hysterical. So you look disdainfully at those who have the audacity to know when their rights are being trampled and fight back? I wonder if you feel the same way about the absurd RICO suit?

Perhaps you should consider buying a condo in North Korea where the powerful can crush the innocent with impunity...and there's nothing they can do about it. Cleary can be your roommate.

Sorry your little plan didn't quite work out they way you were promised it would. Brace yourself for more disappointment. We still live in the US and all of those rights, laws and liberties you find so disgusting will still be working against your oh-so-pure, virginal, "brand new" union that was formed solely for the common good of the working man.

Sorry to have tickled your "funny" bone.

 

[UtterlyUdder]

Wow, what a coincidence! I don't think highly of you!

Amazing!

Didn't expect that you would. Typical west-think.

 

[cleardirect]

I am not a guy, thank you very much! How else would you define Date of Hire? Eons ago before all the smoke and mirrors you guys and to whom this may also apply... threw into this, DOH was determined by a person's birthday in relation to those above him/her and those below him/her. To me and many others, that is the true definition of "career expectations." You can change a lot of things but the one thing you can't change is the day you were born.

Time for a National seniority list!

Date of Hire. The day you were hired at a company.
Date of Birth. The day you exited the womb.

Unless someone is preordained to a job one has nothing to do with the other. Let’s say two brothers go to work at the same company. The younger one gets hired first the older one gets hired second. Who is senior? Do you reorder the list every time a family member gets hired?

The problem is we had a merger. Age does not play into seniority. I know the east pilots like to add that to the mix but it is irrelevant. If a pilot gets hired at age 64.5 should he gain some seniority because of his advanced age? Should a 25 year old move down the list until he is of the “properâ€￾ age to gain anything?

But none of this matters. The seniority INTEGRATION, most east pilots fail to understand that it was integration not the west coming to their list, was done by the rules in arbitration. The court has ruled that USAPA must use Nicolau as the seniority list. Soon the ninth will rule and most likely uphold that finding. The east can complaint all you want but that is the reality that we have.

National seniority list, great. Who is on it and when do you get on it? First commercial job, first major, only ALPA members only USAPA members. Who decides and when does it become active? Does furlough time count?

 

[CallawayGolf]

UtterlyUdder said:
I don't think very highly of people who supported a DFR suit filed against a brand new union. No, not highly at all. No matter how you try to frame it, if you have a brother and he is older than you, he is SENIOR to you.


Situational ethics again. What do you think of a union formed to unfairly represent a minority class of its membership?

 

[boeingplt]

I am not a guy, thank you very much!

Utterly shocking ; o )