US Pilots Labor Thread 3/25-4/1

[Tiger 1050]

Once again. For the umpteenth time. Our previous CBA entered into a flawed, rigged, and biased process whose timeline and sequence of events were preset and predetermined.

Rank and filers such as myself, who had paid dues for decades to that CBA, and expected a fair and equitable process, instead were told to take our years of sweat equity and make room for a group of adolescents with expectations.

ALPA merger policy was bankrupt. The union we had was not our union.

KV,
Your first statement is so subjective it would be funny if I thought you weren't serious. Obviously your skewed perspective is quite the conspiracy theory. Tell me why didn't the east pursue that?

Secondly your return on investment is what it is. If I paid into a particular stock purchase plan for years and years, believing it would produce positive results, and it failed to do so, could I say I want my money back and I don't care who has to pay for it? Adolescents? Is that akin to the "rookies" comment? You can call me what ever you like if it makes you feel better somehow...

Bankrupt? Again why did you not pursue through the East ALPA MEC that avenue? The only thing I can fathom is that you and your fellow east pilots were so blinded by your emotions that you choose to commit to an ill-advised course of action believing that you could intimidate what you perceived to be the weaker group. And you call us adolescents... You guys effectively shot holes in your only life raft.

 

[Pacemaker]

Google "Mojave" and "USAir"

<-----

That's what your management did with your years of sweat equity. Parked in the weeds out in the desert. We had nothing to do with it. And you still want west pilots to pay for it. Comes down to that. It's simple.

 

[Pi brat]

Google "Mojave" and "USAir"

<-----

That's what your management did with your years of sweat equity. Parked in the weeds out in the desert. We had nothing to do with it. And you still want west pilots to pay for it. Comes down to that. It's simple.

Just curious. Are you the former east pilot that hated working for US so much that you were willing to take any job to get out, and went to AWA?

 

[ClueByFour]

It certainly is one company now. If you truly believe your first statement...I'd respectfully suggest that anything past the "however" amounts to nothing more than another variation of the "it just doesn't suit me/my purposes to use DOH anymore" argument. One either believes in and adheres to any particular principal...or does not....period.

How do you explain the pre-merger East list which was not, and is not ordered by DOH?

Period? Principal? Bueller?

 

[EastUS]

Well, under another "real man of genius" moment, ...

Speaking of which; something I've wondered about within the west position's the following:

Even hosting any east pilot on a jump seat can evidently prove "too stressful" and/or "distracting", to even be able to safely fly, for many of your "captains" and, for many of your FO's..apparently even cause for them offering up a sign-in sheet required to, and I directly quote, "mitigate my anxieties"...and yet: you've some fantasy out there that all would well within combined crews should you get your nic.....which, all must presume, would instantly instill an enormous injection of virtual valium into west veins that'd allow for zero 'stress" and "mitigated anxiety" in being paired up to "safely" work/fly with east people on operational flights. Can anyone out west actually explain the "logic" in that? Personally; I'm not much interested in on-the-job babysitting myself....but no matter; I'd honestly just like to know the following = On what possible basis might any out west even think it at all rational for ANYONE to EVER wish to see these groups combined in the cockpit?

I believe Leonidas is certainly and fairly asked these questions, in light of a previously posted desire to have "the captain seat.and most of all...make every single east pilot pay for it".....

 

[pilot]

The answer to that is simple.

I won't happen. As time moves forward it is apparent that any resolution of the seniority issue will cause "safety issues" on the flight deck.

Whoever "wins" won't win a thing. Parker will be forced to split the operation and someone will buy either east or west or pieces of each.

There are very valid safety reasons for keeping the pilot groups separate. I think that will be the eventual outcome regardless of how the seniority list looks.

 

[Piedmont1984]

KV,
Your first statement is so subjective it would be funny if I thought you weren't serious. Obviously your skewed perspective is quite the conspiracy theory. Tell me why didn't the east pursue that?

Secondly your return on investment is what it is. If I paid into a particular stock purchase plan for years and years, believing it would produce positive results, and it failed to do so, could I say I want my money back and I don't care who has to pay for it? Adolescents? Is that akin to the "rookies" comment? You can call me what ever you like if it makes you feel better somehow...

Bankrupt? Again why did you not pursue through the East ALPA MEC that avenue? The only thing I can fathom is that you and your fellow east pilots were so blinded by your emotions that you choose to commit to an ill-advised course of action believing that you could intimidate what you perceived to be the weaker group. And you call us adolescents... You guys effectively shot holes in your only life raft.

Tiger

We pursued a change in CBA, which many would and did say was an even more difficult accomplishment. No need to Monday morning quarterback on that since we are "well off the diving board".

One of the biggest issues in this merger was the disparity in demographics, essentially an older generation of pilots merging with a younger generation. Nicolau's solution to this complicated issue - was to ignore it.

 

[BoeingBoy]

One of the biggest issues in this merger was the disparity in demographics, essentially an older generation of pilots merging with a younger generation. Nicolau's solution to this complicated issue - was to ignore it.

Because it had nothing to do with seniority, ya think?

Jim

 

[Piedmont1984]

Because it had nothing to do with seniority, ya think?

Jim

Right, and the financial condition of the company does, according to you and Nicolau, LOL.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Ya think financial condition may have had just a teensie weensie little bit to do with the furloughs and stagnation that occurred, which in turn affected the seniority of pilots?

Jim

 

[Piedmont1984]

My point is that financial condition has nothing to do with longevity. The years that pilots in the east invested, the years of dues money they sent to a union - a union which they thought would at least try to look after their interests, were summarily dismissed. In the end many in the east had their years of service to this company obliterated and their decades of paying dues reduced to nothing more than someone on probation in the west.

The financial snapshot which Nicolau bought into was so fleeting, so transigent. Within months of that snapshot it was the east operation which was contributing the vast bulk of the profits to the overall enterprise. And even today, it is the liesure markets in PHX and LAS that have become the biggest drain on this company's financial health.

We are kicking a dead horse here. But if east and west can never be expected to work together because of mutual distrust and hostility, then I would think that the last thing the west would want would be a victory in court. After all, the DFR lawsuit is about integrating the lists as well as the cockpits - is it not?

 

[BoeingBoy]

My point is that financial condition has nothing to do with longevity.

And longevity has nothing to do with seniority across airlines. Take Frontier - been in operation since 1994. Are you seriously saying that a 15 year Frontier pilot doesn't have the seniority to be an Airbus captain because a 15 year US pilot doesn't.

I know it would be nice for someone to make the East pilots whole for all the lost time they spent spinning their wheels seniority-wise, but that wasn't caused by the West pilots nor should they pay the price of making you whole. But that's what you want, with some nebulous promises that the future will take care of them - a future you nor no one else can guarantee. Sorta like the PI/US merger and the claim that "If those Piedmont boys will just be patient the growth will take care of them." You're still waiting for that growth and see an opportunity to get the benefit of that promised growth while making the same empty promise to those you take from...

Jim

 

[nycbusdriver]

Oh Man!

We have beaten this dead horse for so long that the carcass has totally decomposed into dust, and then we have continued beat the poor thing even more to the point that the skeleton is shattered into calcium atoms.

Now we are beating the ground on which it once laid.

We all know each others opinions and that nothing we can say is going to change either those opinions or the circumstances.

Can we just let the courts figure this out and admit that neither side can accurately predict what will happen until the final gavel is slammed?

 

[Piedmont1984]

Jim

You are wrong. I don't wish to take from anyone. And I don't expect to be made whole. But I do expect some consideration for my years across company lines in a merger. If DOH is a non starter, then so is slotting. Neither formula works in our case. Good fences make good neighbors. A comprehensive set of C&R's, fences, etc - would have made this integration work for everyone.

Or let me go even one better. I will accept the Nic with the same C&R's which USAPA offered to the west. IOW, fence off the east bases, same language, just substitute PHL, CLT et al for PHX and LAS.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Oh Man!

We have beaten this dead horse for so long that the carcass has totally decomposed into dust, and then we have continued beat the poor thing even more to the point that the skeleton is shattered into calcium atoms.

Now we are beating the ground on which it once laid.

We all know each others opinions and that nothing we can say is going to change either those opinions or the circumstances.

Can we just let the courts figure this out and admit that neither side can accurately predict what will happen until the final gavel is slammed?

No we can't. Calcium atoms are just not small enough