US Pilots labor thread 11/5-

[hp_fa]

Did the west pilots do this to the east? Are the east pilots so weak that you just let this happen? If you are born in the USA does the US constitution not apply because you did not get to vote on it? This entire filing smacks of desperation. Yes this case is over, some just have not figured it out yet.

I have been busy with a post-surgical wife so I have been unable to keep up with everything. I have not fully, and slowly, read the Reply filed in the appeal. So, on the assumption that what Cleardirect has posted is the truth, I do have an issue. The Reply is only designed to allow a party to respond to items raised in the Response. Off the top of my head that blurb that is referenced by Clear is outside of that type of information. Accordingly, it is possible that the Court of Appeals will view that unfavorably because of how and when it was presented.

 

[Metroyet]

They think they have won something......let them delude themselves for a bit longer.

Only in the Bizzaro world of Eastie thought process does this make any sense.

The DOH cram down is dead. The company says nic. is the list and a permanent injunction nailed the coffin shut on USAPAs illegal, immoral, unethical, shameful, disgusting plan.

Your negotiating committee is barred from discussing anything other than the Nic. That isn't going to change. I will agree with you however that nothing has been "won". The East pilots have made losers out of everybody...except the company.

 

[UtterlyUdder]

Only in the Bizzaro world of Eastie thought process does this make any sense.

The DOH cram down is dead. The company says nic. is the list and a permanent injunction nailed the coffin shut on USAPAs illegal, immoral, unethical, shameful, disgusting plan.

Your negotiating committee is barred from discussing anything other than the Nic. That isn't going to change. I will agree with you however that nothing has been "won". The East pilots have made losers out of everybody...except the company.

The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it

-- Omar Khayyam

 

[UtterlyUdder]

There is that hope again. Keep it alive as long as possible.

My I suggest reading the late filed optional reply brief. Then explain what this had to do with DFR of the west.



Did the west pilots do this to the east? Are the east pilots so weak that you just let this happen? If you are born in the USA does the US constitution not apply because you did not get to vote on it? This entire filing smacks of desperation. Yes this case is over, some just have not figured it out yet.

You need not waste your words on me. You can't change my mind. I really don't care what you think about any of this. Since you push your tea leaves all over this forum, here are mine: The west will lose.

 

[Dogandsuds]

USAPA broke the law, they were busted, and the Judge fixed it. That's it.

It would be far scarier to me to allow the majority to rape and pillage at will, all the while hiding behind some sanctimonious smoke screen of democracy and unionism.

The Jury seemed to feel that way as well. So will the 9th.

Dear Metroyet,

I know emotions are getting high again, but I would like to ask a couple questions.

First, what law did USAPA break? If they broke a law, why wasn't this a criminal case?

Second, is there a reason you must use words like rape and pillage? This will be decided by the Ninth Court, not by cheap language from either side.

Third, why can't all of us relax the internal battle and start aiming at what will get us back to full employment? Yes, that's my deal, getting back to work, not participating in a union fight. It's not just you, Metroyet. We all need to calm down.

Sincerely,

Dogandsuds (furloughed)

 

[UtterlyUdder]

Dear Metroyet,

I know emotions are getting high again, but I would like to ask a couple questions.

First, what law did USAPA break? If they broke a law, why wasn't this a criminal case?

Second, is there a reason you must use words like rape and pillage? This will be decided by the Ninth Court, not by cheap language from either side.

Third, why can't all of us relax the internal battle and start aiming at what will get us back to full employment? Yes, that's my deal, getting back to work, not participating in a union fight. It's not just you, Metroyet. We all need to calm down.

Sincerely,

Dogandsuds (furloughed)

Dog&S, you're quite right. Breaking the law IS criminal. The west engages in massive hyperbole on this forum, which you have no doubt picked up on. I think they know full well what "criminal" means yet they refuse to use proper English here.

Meanwhile, the west will continue deluding itself and predicting that it will "win". So far, their only "victory" is a pyrrhic one indeed.

I read your posts and they are superb.

I hope you get back to flying asap!

 

[Metroyet]

Dear Metroyet,

I know emotions are getting high again, but I would like to ask a couple questions.

First, what law did USAPA break? If they broke a law, why wasn't this a criminal case?

Second, is there a reason you must use words like rape and pillage? This will be decided by the Ninth Court, not by cheap language from either side.

Third, why can't all of us relax the internal battle and start aiming at what will get us back to full employment? Yes, that's my deal, getting back to work, not participating in a union fight. It's not just you, Metroyet. We all need to calm down.

Sincerely,

Dogandsuds (furloughed)

Firstly, I'm sorry you're furloughed, I've been there and it's no fun. Secondly, If you don't know what law was broken, or even have a cursory understanding of a what has happened in the court room over the last two years then I suggest you do some research. The USAPA website has the entire recorded history in the legal library.

I use words like "rape and pillage" because I don't mince words. I call it like I see it and I don't see any cheapness in proper metaphor. USAPA had zero legitimate reason for being formed other than to screw the West...permanently. That is not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of law and recorded in the "findings of fact" as written by Judge Wake. It's all there. You can read it for yourself.

Your union is paralyzed with dysfunction and that fact certainly isn't going to get you back to work any sooner. I appreciate the fact that you would like a nice civil exchange where nobody is called out and held responsible for their behavior but that isn't the world I live in. There is culpability here. I refuse to ignore it and pretend that the thief in my house intends me no harm.

Your "deal" is getting back to work and I respect that. My deal is protecting my family from this "union". I'll do whatever it takes to do that and calling them out in a public forum is only part of it. Sorry if it makes you uncomfortable...you can always hit the ignore button.

 

[nic4us]

The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it

-- Omar Khayyam

The Typing Hand posts; and, having post,
Moves on: nor all your Sense nor Boast
Shall tempt it back to edit half a Line,
Nor all your Fantasy be real for Most

--Nic4us

 

[cleardirect]

Dog&S, you're quite right. Breaking the law IS criminal. The west engages in massive hyperbole on this forum, which you have no doubt picked up on. I think they know full well what "criminal" means yet they refuse to use proper English here.

Meanwhile, the west will continue deluding itself and predicting that it will "win". So far, their only "victory" is a pyrrhic one indeed.

I read your posts and they are superb.

I hope you get back to flying asap!

Can you all say RICO? If those guys broke the law where are the criminal charges????? Hint none were filed.

No it is possible to break the law without it being criminal.

USAPA violate the DFR law. There is a jury that said so. There is an injunction to fix that violation. Just because usapa is appealing does not change those facts.

Besides if it is a pyrrhic (as you spelled it) victory then why fight so hard to stop it? Let it go and watch the harm you think it will bring.

 

[UtterlyUdder]

Can you all say RICO? If those guys broke the law where are the criminal charges????? Hint none were filed.

No it is possible to break the law without it being criminal.

USAPA violate the DFR law. There is a jury that said so. There is an injunction to fix that violation. Just because usapa is appealing does not change those facts.

Besides if it is a pyrrhic (as you spelled it) victory then why fight so hard to stop it? Let it go and watch the harm you think it will bring.

Main Entryyrrhic
Pronunciation:*pir-ik
Function:adjective
Etymologyyrrhus, king of Epirus who sustained heavy losses in defeating the Romans
Date:1885

: achieved at excessive cost *a Pyrrhic victory*; also : costly to the point of negating or outweighing expected benefits *a great but Pyrrhic act of ingenuity*

My bad. I forgot to capitalize "Pyrrhic". Now you can go pester someone else.

 

[UtterlyUdder]

The Typing Hand posts; and, having post,
Moves on: nor all your Sense nor Boast
Shall tempt it back to edit half a Line,
Nor all your Fantasy be real for Most

--Nic4us

By George, this is the first brilliant comeback you've posted here! Nonetheless, you are still dead wrong.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Dear Metroyet,

I know emotions are getting high again, but I would like to ask a couple questions.

First, what law did USAPA break?

Duty to fairly represent all union members. The remedy for a union's failure to fairly represnt lies in equity (ie an injunction) and possibly monetary damages (that's the second trial, scheduled for the Spring).

If they broke a law, why wasn't this a criminal case?

Because this isn't a criminal case. We have civil and criminal laws. The vast majority of litigation is civil, probably 95% of all cases.

Second, is there a reason you must use words like rape and pillage?

Under common law, rape was the forcible penetration of a woman who is not the wife. Doesn't quite work today as rape encompasses much more than the common law definition, but the gist of it back then was using physical force to overpower the victim. It doesn't take much to correlate common law rape with the forced submission of a minority block through sheer numbers on the majority side. The idea is the use of a physical advantage to gain something from the victim agianst the victim's will.

This will be decided by the Ninth Court, not by cheap language from either side.

Yup. In three months we can put this behind us all and refocus on what needs to be done.

Third, why can't all of us relax the internal battle and start aiming at what will get us back to full employment? Yes, that's my deal, getting back to work, not participating in a union fight. It's not just you, Metroyet. We all need to calm down.

Couldn't agree more.

 

[Captain Underpants]

Asked whether a merger would be prevented by the inability to combine two pilot groups following the 2005 US Airways/America West merger, Parker responded: "All it means is that if indeed there was to be another merger, it would require yet again another seniority integration, (between) three groups instead of two."

Doug's comments are correct. Any subsequent merger would use USAPA merger policy vs. the other union's policy by law. If the other union were ALPA they could not reorder their own list because ALPA policy would prohibit it. USAPA merger policy is DOH with no restriction on reordering lists for a new merger seniority integration. There would be a new 3 way transition agreement jointly negotiated by USAPA and the other union replacing the current TA.

The other carrier would likely accept DOH with protections from conditions and restrictions because USAPA would have an incentive to make it more than fair for the other groups including the West. 80% of East pilots are gone in 10 years anyway so the only debate would be over the length of the fence.

Yes what about Wake's injunction? Wake has already ruled USAPA can abrogate the Nicolau award with a "legitimate union objective". New merger would mean entirely new union objectives. Yes the West could file a new DFR lawsuit but with a new transition agreement, new 3 way joint contract and new consensual or arbitrated seniority list using DOH in place good luck with that one.

Doug is correct new merger= menage a trois.

underpants

 

[luvn737s]

Under McCaskill-Bond.

 

[Captain Underpants]

Under McCaskill-Bond.

Absolutely!.......which if no consensual agreement between USAPA and the new union would guarantee a new Federal arbitration using Allegheny-Mohawk LPP's which has DOH as the precedent. ALPA merger policy could not be used by law under a McCaskill-Bond mandated arbitration.

underpants