US Pilots Labor Thread 3/25-4/1

[nic4us]

It's a shame, then, that you fail to recognize the preponderance of DOH evidence all around you. To wit: the NYFD firefighter who is getting "furloughed" after 2 tours in Iraq. It was making National news a fews weeks back. He went to war, his FD precinct was cutting back due to the economy. He was coming home to a furlough notice based on his DOH at the NYFD. The FD Captain was being questioned on National TV about the "unfairness of it..."

The Captain said this:

"We are a union, our union is based on date of hire principles...last-in-first-out....thats it, end of story."

I say, DITTO.

I recognize that DOH is a basic union principal. It determines your seniority within your company. However, we are no longer two separate companies. In the firefighter example, if the NYFD would somhow merge with the much more recently grown LASFD (vegas) I serioously doubt the people of Las Vegas would allow their citizen fire fighters to be displaced by New Yorkers who were furloughed, just because they were hired in New York at an earlier date.

It is a shame you fail to recognize the difference between seniority and longivity, and fail to recognize that historically DOH is not necessarily the only driving principal in pilot integration.

To reply to the Captains last in first out quote,.. I too say DITTO... It is a shame you fail to recognize we both got here on the same day, but perhaps I arrived with more seniority, I know I was senior to east furloughs. so who has to go.

Did I mention we have some 20 or so furloughs leaving us today April 1, more slated for May 1,out west while people out east furloughed at the merge date are still working? While furloughs recalled from east to West were allowed to transfer back east and keep working while those senior to them are furloughed.Has the east even furloughed new hires yet? So save your union rhetoric for someone who buys off on USAPA's hiding behind "union principals" in their campaign to steal jobs.

 

[tazz]

He asserts LOS, something your merger committee ignored, to your loss.

Snark, I was on our merger committee. We did NOT ignore LOS. Your side rejected any and all proposals that did not exclusively dictate DOH. Even Nicolau warned your merger committee to step off of DOH, giving them another chance to negotiate before he made a decision. The east's myopic stance on DOH is to blame. Nothing else.d Not to our loss alone, your side is suffering in this as well.

We will see mid- May how this all plays out. One way or another we will all move on. My opinion, however, your side will NOT be happy. But they will be stuck with it.

 

[tazz]

Let me fix that for you.

It essentially parallels the Nicolau arbitrated combined seniority list for pilot groups who are fairly close to each other, seniority-wise.

There you go.

Have you looked at the dynamics of those two pilot groups? Have the sense not to be pulling your facts out of your butt before posting.

There you go.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Your statement implying a situation where pay/benefits would not matter.

I implied no such thing. I said exactly what I meant - "if more members were worried about losing their job than confronting management for better pay/benefits it wouldn't matter" what the name of the union was.

Did you fear a union bringing down a corporation? What about loss of jobs? Is it a union's (association's) goal to "save jobs", like ALPA did with MDA? That worked out well, don't you think?

I believe it is the members that make the union, not the union that makes the members - whether union or association is in the name of the organization. Claiming that being part of a labor "association" instead of union means that the membership is predisposed a certain way is nonsense. As far as I'm concerned, anyone who needs to use one word in the name of the labor organization they belong to is just trying to find a scapegoat for their own weakness in labor matters.

Jim

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

It's a shame, then, that you fail to recognize the preponderance of DOH evidence all around you. To wit: the NYFD firefighter who is getting "furloughed" after 2 tours in Iraq. It was making National news a fews weeks back. He went to war, his FD precinct was cutting back due to the economy. He was coming home to a furlough notice based on his DOH at the NYFD. The FD Captain was being questioned on National TV about the "unfairness of it..."

The Captain said this:

"We are a union, our union is based on date of hire principles...last-in-first-out....thats it, end of story."

I say, DITTO.

What, did the NYFD and PhillyFD departments merge? Were there any of them who were on furlough at the time of the merge? Maybe some of the furloughees were working at the Newark FD and were happy at their present job.

Seriously, try to use examples that make sense - examples that are germane to the merge of AWA/oldUS. Like Delta/Northwest.

 

[EastUS]

QUOTE (EastUS @ Mar 30 2009, 02:15 AM) *
I'd cheerfully hand over my seniority to anyone with more time and service performed

Is there anyone alive who is stupid enough to believe that statement? That is the sweetest smelling BS I have yet heard!
Eastus, you have brought the entertainment value of your nonsense up to a whole new level.

It doesn't surprise me in the least that you would immediately react with incredulous disbelief. My statement's quite true, and accurately reflects my beliefs, but probably can't be easily fit into any world view where "It's ALL about MEEE!" reigns supreme...where what I perceive to be unbridled, unprincipled, (and even insane) selfishness rules the day.

You needn't look around you for anyone "who is stupid enough", as I've little doubt of your immediately finding a plentiful supply of able candidates. What you would need to do instead is seek out any with a realization that the universe wasn't made just for them, and that reasoned principles do have some functional value. I simply don't believe that any actual unionism's at all possible without mutual respect for years worked and service performed....period..and your west position's predicated on having NONE of that.

Perhaps you would just be kind enough to explain to all, exactly what the unionist/solidarity/etc benefits of the glorious nic obsession/"I want the captain seat.and most of all, I want every single east pilot to pay for it!!!" have actually been for the pilot group? While we're at it = what degree of "we're in this together" sentiment do you ever imagine to come out of it?

I think we're done here........

 

[EastUS]

And I also think most union employees would also agree the seniority issue bites them as much as it "Protects" them.

It is a flawed system.

1) Why don't you actually ask "most union employees" and then get back to us all here?

2) Sigh...yep = being instantly disposable, at will workers would be SO much the superior system...especially with such "trustworthy" management, as is so often the case in the current period of history

 

[EastUS]

I recognize that DOH is a basic union principal. It determines your seniority within your company. However,............

It certainly is one company now. If you truly believe your first statement...I'd respectfully suggest that anything past the "however" amounts to nothing more than another variation of the "it just doesn't suit me/my purposes to use DOH anymore" argument. One either believes in and adheres to any particular principal...or does not....period.

 

[wopr21]

BTW, the seniority system is a Big negative not a positive for unions IMHO. Not that any of you care, but the majority of the public would agree with me that Unions in general and Seniority in particular is a negative on American business not a positive.
And I also think most union employees would also agree the seniority issue bites them as much as it "Protects" them.

It is a flawed system.

There is a place for unions and the airlines is one place. If we did not have a union to protect a professional standard then we would be working for the privilege. In other words for nothing.

I agree that if companies were fair in the way they treated employee's we would not need unions

Just saying ...in a perfect world

wopr

 

[Piedmont1984]

BTW, the seniority system is a Big negative not a positive for unions IMHO. Not that any of you care, but the majority of the public would agree with me that Unions in general and Seniority in particular is a negative on American business not a positive.
And I also think most union employees would also agree the seniority issue bites them as much as it "Protects" them.

It is a flawed system.

I would say that American business has been a negative on American business. Greedy, incompetent company execs, financial gurus who didn't understand the very instruments they created and used, the list is long and we have been watching it all unfold since last summer.

Any system you choose will have it's flaws. Take away seniority and you have favoritism, cronyism, and nepotism.

 

[tazz]

QUOTE (EastUS @ Mar 30 2009, 02:15 AM) *
I'd cheerfully hand over my seniority to anyone with more time and service performed



It doesn't surprise me in the least that you would immediately react with incredulous disbelief. My statement's quite true, and accurately reflects my beliefs, but probably can't be easily fit into any world view where "It's ALL about MEEE!" reigns supreme...where what I perceive to be unbridled, unprincipled, (and even insane) selfishness rules the day.

You needn't look around you for anyone "who is stupid enough", as I've little doubt of your immediately finding a plentiful supply of able candidates. What you would need to do instead is seek out any with a realization that the universe wasn't made just for them, and that reasoned principles do have some functional value. I simply don't believe that any actual unionism's at all possible without mutual respect for years worked and service performed....period..and your west position's predicated on having NONE of that.

Perhaps you would just be kind enough to explain to all, exactly what the unionist/solidarity/etc benefits of the glorious nic obsession/"I want the captain seat.and most of all, I want every single east pilot to pay for it!!!" have actually been for the pilot group? While we're at it = what degree of "we're in this together" sentiment do you ever imagine to come out of it?

I think we're done here........

Eastus, still saying so little with so many words.

I do NOT believe that you would cheerfully hand over your seniority under ANY circumstances.

Please get over this "I want the captain seat and I want the east to pay for it" crap! While you're at it, get over the "it's all about me" crap as well. You have well worn out that quote from one lone individual. It is true, however, that the only time you actually say something is when you're quoting someone else.

With regards to unionism and solidarity, there will never be any such thing on this property. Your side chose to obliterate any chance of that happening by not honoring your agreement with us and then dismantling the union we had to be replaced by one which serves only your purposes.

The DFR lawsuit will soon be completed and we will all move on from there. Should the west prevail you can appeal until the cows come home but you will be stuck with the decision of the court. Even when that's done we will move on but will never do so with any form of solidarity. Because of this we will always be at the bottom of the barrel in pay and benefits.

It never ceases to amaze me that the people who cry the loudest about unionism and solidarity are the ones who did the most to destroy it.

 

[EastUS]

Eastus, still saying so little with so many words.

I do NOT believe that you would cheerfully hand over your seniority under ANY circumstances.

With regards to unionism and solidarity, there will never be any such thing on this property.

1) Fortunately; your belief,or lack thereof, in my personal ethics does nothing whatsoever to effect any alteration in them.

2) Agreed, since I can't imagine any real cohesiveness with the west contingent anymore...and how truly sad that is.

3) As for: "While you're at it, get over the "it's all about me" crap as well."....I like to think that I did, some years ago in fact. I'd gently suggest considering the life benefits from that philosophy. "I do NOT believe that you would cheerfully hand over your seniority under ANY circumstances." speaks volumes.........

 

[Piedmont1984]

Eastus, still saying so little with so many words.



With regards to unionism and solidarity, there will never be any such thing on this property. Your side chose to obliterate any chance of that happening by not honoring your agreement with us and then dismantling the union we had to be replaced by one which serves only your purposes.

Once again. For the umpteenth time. Our previous CBA entered into a flawed, rigged, and biased process whose timeline and sequence of events were preset and predetermined.

Rank and filers such as myself, who had paid dues for decades to that CBA, and expected a fair and equitable process, instead were told to take our years of sweat equity and make room for a group of adolescents with expectations.

ALPA merger policy was bankrupt. The union we had was not our union.

 

[Leonidas]

Well, under another "real man of genius" moment, usapa will have to rerun the west election at a cost to the membership of $25k. They tried to keep members in good standing from running, because those members didn't agree with their point of view.

 

[ussnark]

Not that any of you care, but the majority of the public would agree with me that Unions in general and Seniority in particular is a negative on American business not a positive.

We do care, especially that your "feelings" seem to have nothing to do with reality.