US Pilots Labor Thread 1/21 to 1/27

[kubotapilot]

Was MDA a seperate airline, or was it mainline???

Simple answer will suffice.....

Very simple answer to both q's:

Was MDA a seperate airline?: No

was it mainline?: Yes

The other question regarding the furlough notice and recalls:

I was furloughed with notice.

I was recalled to MDA as a Mainline pilot and I have the docs to prove that also. They will ALL be available and entered during the trial. The evidence is so overwhelming and complete that even a BLIND court / jury will see the TRUTH. The best part of this is that ALPA generated most of the damning evidence themselves !

Both parties to the suit, along with the company now have this damning documentation via discovery (which is now complete) to prove it. Also in this documentation / proof are internal ALPA memorandums and documents that will very much surprise you regardless of whether you are East/West ex MDA or not.

I have seen the documentation, and have contributed to it also.

To ALL, East and West...don't waste bandwidth or breath or even get emotionally worked up on this forum. The courts WILL decide on all of these cases. Have faith in the system, it does work !

 

[Crzipilot]

I seriously doubt the internal ALPA memos will surprise me. I am anxiously awaiting the outcome of the MDA debacle. As being a J4J participant, I might have a slightly different view point of what those at MDA have. My question regarding the MDA was in response to the person asking about the furloughs and recalls, just a little twist towards them. I thought I remembered that ML furlough pay was terminated if you took a MDA position, and that some may not have even gotten any furlough pay as they went from ML direct to MDA, but again, wasn't there so wasn't sure.

Anyways, definitely will be interesting....

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

Very simple answer to both q's:

Was MDA a seperate airline?: No

was it mainline?: Yes

>>>>>snip

What was/is the MDA ATC callsign?

 

[Metroyet]

The West goes Viral...



PHOENIX DOMICILE UPDATE
January 26, 2009

Fellow America West pilots,
My name is Brice LeCarre, P1212, and I am an Airbus Captain based in Phoenix. I was hired by America West on July 5, 1989, and have flown the DHC-8 (Dash-8) and the Airbus. I was a member of the original organizing committee that brought ALPA on the property. I subsequently served twice in various communication positions during the early ALPA years. I have had the distinct pleasure of meeting or flying with many of you over the past 20 years.
April 17th, 2008, was definitely the worst day of my professional career. Never before had I witnessed such a blatant and malicious disregard for the America West pilots, and never did I think that such a threat to our careers would come from an organization that is supposed to be promoting our interests. I, like just about every America West pilot, responded to that threat by refusing to join or pay dues to the new entity. Also like most of you, I began regularly contributing money to Leonidas, AWAPPA and the Cactus 18.
Although most of my feelings about USAPA have not changed since that dark April day, I have tried to adopt a pragmatic view of our current situation in hopes of finding a way through it successfully. I spent a great deal of time reading the information made available to us from both of our protective organizations, discussing that information with other pilots and even doing some of my own research about the issues that face us. Even despite that wealth of information, I could not stomach the idea of ever becoming a USAPA member. However, once our largest issue – seniority – became a matter for a judge to decide, I began to reflect more seriously about the idea of West involvement in USAPA as a means to protect all of our other interests.
A couple of weeks ago, I decided to apply for USAPA membership (with my stated protest to date-of-hire, of course) and to become in good standing. However, I did not feel that merely getting my membership rights and a vote was enough. I felt that we needed West representation on the Board of Pilot Representatives, yet there was nobody who seemed willing to take that difficult step. So, early last week, I contacted USAPA’s Interim President, Steve Bradford, to ask to be appointed as the interim PHX Domicile Chairman.
As of Monday, January 26th, 2009, I have officially been appointed the Interim PHX Domicile Chairman. I will hold this position until April 1, 2009, at which time the position will be filled by the candidate that you elect to fill the position. Pursuant to Article V, section 1. B., of the USAPA C&Bs, I now represent LAS as well, on the same Interim basis. Despite the fact that USAPA membership still remains a controversial topic of debate within the America West ranks, I do greatly appreciate the overwhelmingly supportive feedback that I have received from pilots on both sides of that debate.
In an effort to continue to earn your support, I offer you the following standing promises:
I will not entertain, acknowledge, discuss or consider any proposed seniority list other than the one that Mr. Parker accepted on December 20, 2007.
I will work closely with our protective organizations to ensure that our legal rights are not trod upon. Likewise, I will seek to compel the other Board members to immediately cease from engaging in the current frivolous and malicious litigation against its own members.
I will exercise due diligence in making decisions on your behalf and communicate openly and honestly about those decisions both before and after they’re made.
I will seek to build a productive relationship with the other Board members and Officers, in hopes of supporting issues that are important to all US Airways pilots. The Company has already taken full advantage of the East/West clash by repeatedly violating the Transition Agreement and both East and West CBAs, which is a practice that must be stopped immediately.
I will begin planning our first real Domicile meeting for the near future. Until then, I encourage you to contact me with your questions and feedback.
Fraternally,
Captain Brice LeCarre

 

[nic4us]

Hi Mr. Nic,

This quote WILL come back to haunt you.

Regardless of how Addington etc... are resolved, and regardless of the time line of these cases, the MDA / Furlough question will also be decided in Federal Court and the outcome WILL effect your precious NIC lottery.

The evidence that will be presented in court during the MDA case will come down on ALPA like a mudslide and the NIC reward will be a casualty. Yes, the West group may still prevail, but that will happen with a NEW ARBITRATION that utilizes the CORRECT set of pilot lists.

Please cease from making statements about the furlough status of the MDA brothers because you do not know ANYTHING factual about their case. I guess in your mind the more you make these statements the more you feel they are the truth, however you will find out in due time.

You and several others here continue pounding your chests regarding the Nic reward and binding arbitration etc... and I most definitely AGREE, binding arbitration is binding and legal, but NOT when the arbitration itself was based on FAULTY information. You are all, east and west, wasting your breath here (myself included !) as this will all be a mute point. We will all re-arbitrate, and finally will either come together as a solid group, or continue ad-infinitum as separate ops until the next merger.

Kubota,

Since I do not know anything factual about their case please enlighten me.

Would not a pilot furloughed, displaced, transfered to MDA,whatever you wish to call it, still have their original USAirways seniority number and have had that number placed on the Nicolau decision?

It is my understanding this is the case and that new hire pilots who only flew a MDA are placed at the bottom of the Nic.

That is what I was trying to say in the line you quoted of me.

Also, I do not see how the MDA DFR against ALPA will invalidate the Nic. If MDA wins a judgement against ALPA, that is the compensation for any wrong that they may have incured. I thought they were asking for like a billion dollars, not changing the Nic. What I am saying is MDA is suing ALPA not the Company or the West and I doubt any judgement would be detrimental to a group not involved in the suit. ALPA is no longer our bargaining agent and no longer could influence change to the Nic. But who knows crazy things happen.

Further thoughts on the lottery analogy,

A lottery ticket is a chance at a large reward for a minimal investment. My problem with the use of comparing Nic to a lottery is not that you feel I have had a large gain, which simply is not true, but also that you imply I have made no real investment.

Nic4us

 

[Crzipilot]

Kubota,

Since I do not know anything factual about their case please enlighten me.

Would not a pilot furloughed, displaced, transfered to MDA,whatever you wish to call it, still have their original USAirways seniority number and have had that number placed on the Nicolau decision?

If I may. You see, their number was in the NIC decision, pasted BELOW the last West pilot. Part of the argument, if I am correct, is that they were actually active US pilots, and hence should not have been stapled onto the bottom, but those 300 or whatever numbers should have been slotted into the list as the rest of the active pilots were. In essence changing the list.

 

[cleardirect]

Hi Mr. Nic,

This quote WILL come back to haunt you.

Regardless of how Addington etc... are resolved, and regardless of the time line of these cases, the MDA / Furlough question will also be decided in Federal Court and the outcome WILL effect your precious NIC lottery.

The evidence that will be presented in court during the MDA case will come down on ALPA like a mudslide and the NIC reward will be a casualty. Yes, the West group may still prevail, but that will happen with a NEW ARBITRATION that utilizes the CORRECT set of pilot lists.

Please cease from making statements about the furlough status of the MDA brothers because you do not know ANYTHING factual about their case. I guess in your mind the more you make these statements the more you feel they are the truth, however you will find out in due time.

You and several others here continue pounding your chests regarding the Nic reward and binding arbitration etc... and I most definitely AGREE, binding arbitration is binding and legal, but NOT when the arbitration itself was based on FAULTY information. You are all, east and west, wasting your breath here (myself included !) as this will all be a mute point. We will all re-arbitrate, and finally will either come together as a solid group, or continue ad-infinitum as separate ops until the next merger.

It has been pointed out before. The west is not part of the MDA suit. That is between the east, MDA and ALPA. You say that the case will be re-arbitrated. Has there ever been a case that was re-arbitrated?

Why would it be redone? The facts have not changed.

You say use a correct set of pilots lists. Who gave Nicolau the east list? Was it the east MC? That is your problem, not the west. Because of an east error (maybe an error) why should the west pay a penalty for your mistake? The company also agrees with the list. They just removed incorrectly calculated longevity pay. They consider you furloughed at the time.

The facts are that all but one counts has been thrown out. That one count is left only because the judge did not understand how being placed on the bottom of arbitrated list was done. Once that is explained all of this will be over. Besides you guys are asking for a huge sum of money. Even if you were to win. It will hard to convince another judge and arbitrator that after you have received damages then you also deserve to steal seniority from someone not involved in a law suit.

Keep spending your money though. The economy can use it.

 

[Crzipilot]

What was/is the MDA ATC callsign?

Strangely enough, I think I remember that it was "USAIR" though I could be wrong...

 

[nic4us]

If I may. You see, their number was in the NIC decision, pasted BELOW the last West pilot. Part of the argument, if I am correct, is that they were actually active US pilots, and hence should not have been stapled onto the bottom, but those 300 or whatever numbers should have been slotted into the list as the rest of the active pilots were. In essence changing the list.

So the argument is that a pilot who went to MDA should become senior to their fellow AAA pilots who simply took furlough because they in essence continued to accrue length of service and were "on property" during the merger? That would have reordered the AAA list and been unfair to the AAA furloughees.

Two pilots... one hired april 88, is given furlough notice and leaves for corporate world... another hired june 88 is given furlough notice but accepts MDA. The June MDA pilot is now senior to the April hire? The new hire at MDA who never flew mainline is considered active and goes ahead of the april 88 hire?

MDA's arguement is that the AAA list should have been reordered prior to submission to Nicolau? This is where ALPA failed in its DFR? ALPA failed to throw furloughees under the bus in favor of MDA new hires? Dam! I am starting to respect ALPA again. Now if you can demonstrate ALPA did something to help the West I will be a full on supporter.

 

[Metroyet]

Even if the MDA list is flawed. There will be NO "re-arbitration". George Nicalau maintains jurisdiction over the list. This is spelled out in no uncertain terms. If a federal court tell him the list was flawed, and in fact these (fill in the blank) number of pilots were affected, George Nicalau would slot them in in the different order. Hardly the windfall you're hoping for.

You are not holding the lynch pin to a certified DOH ruling from another Arbitrator!!

 

[GorgeousGeorge]

You say use a correct set of pilots lists. Who gave Nicolau the east list? Was it the east MC? That is your problem, not the west. Because of an east error (maybe an error) why should the west pay a penalty for your mistake? The company also agrees with the list. They just removed incorrectly calculated longevity pay. They consider you furloughed at the time.

At the time Airways did not agree with the list used and provided one showing them as active. New management has altered the pay but that is being grieved and will be resolved. The question is whether ALPA knew an incorrect list was being used and deliberately ignored to prevent hindering itself in a legal case. That would be fraudulent, not an error and that would matter very much. ALPA which provided a merger process would be guilty of deliberately interfering and corrupting it. It was posted before that along with compensation, the MDA pilots are seeking an injunction against the Nic list.

 

[BoeingBoy]

If I may. You see, their number was in the NIC decision, pasted BELOW the last West pilot. Part of the argument, if I am correct, is that they were actually active US pilots, and hence should not have been stapled onto the bottom, but those 300 or whatever numbers should have been slotted into the list as the rest of the active pilots were. In essence changing the list.

Actually, only ~150-175 jobs would be in a different position on the Nic list - the MDA Captain jobs and note that I said jobs and not pilots. The MDA F/O jobs would still be in the same position because those jobs would have slotted in below the "mainline" jobs used in the construction of the Nic list - 737/A320 and above. Only the MDA Captain jobs would possibly have slotted in differently than on the Nic list - where depending on whether one uses pay rate or Capt position to slot those jobs.

The reason that I noted the difference between jobs and pilots is simple - Nic arranged the list by jobs then filled those jobs by starting at the top of the two lists and proceeding down each list. So while the MDA Capt jobs would be integrated into the list, the only change to the seniority list would be a block of ~150-175 East pilots where the MDA Capt jobs were slotted into the list since West didn't operate 170's. So the top ~150-170 considered as furloughed by Nic would be slotted in with their West counterparts at the junior end of the 737/A320 F/O's. The remainder of the MDA pilots would be where they are on the Nic list - still below everyone else mixed in with the rest of the furloughed pilots.

Jim

 

[GorgeousGeorge]

Actually, only ~150-175 jobs would be in a different position on the Nic list - the MDA Captain jobs and note that I said jobs and not pilots. The MDA F/O jobs would still be in the same position because those jobs would have slotted in below the "mainline" jobs used in the construction of the Nic list - 737/A320 and above. Only the MDA Captain jobs would possibly have slotted in differently than on the Nic list - where depending on whether one uses pay rate or Capt position to slot those jobs.

The reason that I noted the difference between jobs and pilots is simple - Nic arranged the list by jobs then filled those jobs by starting at the top of the two lists and proceeding down each list. So while the MDA Capt jobs would be integrated into the list, the only change to the seniority list would be a block of ~150-175 East pilots where the MDA Capt jobs were slotted into the list since West didn't operate 170's. So the top ~150-170 considered as furloughed by Nic would be slotted in with their West counterparts at the junior end of the 737/A320 F/O's. The remainder of the MDA pilots would be where they are on the Nic list - still below everyone else mixed in with the rest of the furloughed pilots.

Jim

If the process was deliberately corrupted the process will be found invalid, kinda like the OJ case/

 

[Crzipilot]

All of these theories are quite possibly true. BUT they are just that theories, as the individuals on here are not the ones that made the list, or determined how it would be made. From the final result everyone can pull their own hypothesis and declare "this is how it probably would have gone. Net net, once again it's another case of, the courts shall decide.

So as more bandwidth is wasted on more of the same subjects (some of which have been debated and argued well before the merger with the west)

How 'bout this one, IF the mda individuals are giving credit for Pay and vacation purposes, should it not reason that all of those that went to J4J carriers be given credit for the same. As at the time of the filling of vacancies, there were those that were not allowed to goto MDA, or those that were told that MDA was basically another WO etc etc........ So all the J4J pilots should be given credit for time served. Or All bypassed pilots for recall to mainline (MDA) should be given credit for an Improper recall process (one which ALPA allowed, watched, followed, from birth to death.) And lets continue on the ALPA train, in how the interpreted the recall of individuals with the company deciding which airframes and such they would have the chance to bid on.

so everyone has their little tidbits of the 800lb gorilla they would like to be compensated for. The common theme in this gorilla was ALPA, now that they are gone, what's going to be done about it?

 

[Metroyet]

If the process was deliberately corrupted the process will be found invalid, kinda like the OJ case/

Found "invalid" by whom? Then what? Your mythical 'do over"

With the precedent set by Nic. and the DAL/NWA arbitration, do you really expect any different ruling? The company already paid 600k for the nic. list. Whose going to pay for another Arbitration and how exactly do you plan on keeping another Federal Lawsuit away from that attempt?

It's over. Nic. is the List. It was a result of an agreed upon INCLUSIVE legal due process. In Polar opposite to USAPAs DOH fantasy list.