US Pilots Labor Thread 1/21 to 1/27

[GorgeousGeorge]

What the judge is being asked to do is enforce a bargain made by you and the other east pilots. When you and the other east pilots entered into binding arbitration. The west is asking nothing more then what we agreed to. The result of arbitration.

Actually the East pilots didn't agree to anything, they simply by ALPA constitutional requirement participated in an internal process in which bargaining position for seniority integration into a single contract would be established. They had no choice, it was an obligation under the ALPA constitution. A process that is under review in another court as being tampered with and alleged to have been based on knowingly wrong information.

A single contract has yet to be resolved and the new union has adopted a bargaining position for a single contract based on the requirements of its constitution. Pilot integration has never been resolved as the event that codifies it, a single contract still remains open and the new union is operating consistent with its own obligations.

The judge will have to decide if union members through their legally elected union have the right to determine their own seniority protocols and whether in the case of USAPA DOH & Conditions/Restrictions methodology, the policy is arbitrary or capricious and advances the interest of one group over another or if the policy applies equally to everyone. Clearly by entitlement, a union denies its members the right to advance based on merit, skills, or capacity and requires both its members and the company to adhere to seniority system. The judge will have to decide if seniority is a vested benefit and whether the length of employment is an inherently flawed system or provides equal opportunity for all. DOH/LOS has been tested in court many times and found to both fair and consistent with promoting the benefits of the labor as a whole. The argument behind DOH with conditions and restrictions is it seeks to maintain the status quo and allow for future advancement to be based on length of employment which is a quantifiable criterion that can be equally applied to all.

Obviously aside from the facts of the USAPA case, if the Nic list were found to have been produced with intentional incorrect information and enjoined by the act of another court, it would have great impact on its relevance in any DFR allegations in the case against USAPA.

 

[boeingplt]

Please enlighten us by answering two simple questions...

1. Did the MDA pilots receive furlough notices from mainline prior to going to work at MDA?

2. Did those same pilots return to mainline in response to a furlough recall notice?

Yes or no answers will suffice.

Did those same pilots have their furlough pay stop when they returned to MDA? Yes

 

[tazz]

Did those same pilots have their furlough pay stop when they returned to MDA? Yes

So, they were receiving furlough pay. I will assume that is a "yes" to my first question. Did they or did they not return to mainline after receiving a furlough recall?

Geez! It's like pulling teeth to get a straight answer to a VERY simple question.

 

[Crzipilot]

It seems no one wants to open their mind as to what exactly it means that MDA was mainline. It's a huge can of worms that the ex alpa reps did not want to touch, and wanted it swept under the rug, "because it's just the junior people that it's effecting"

Basically you can start with an improper recall back to mainline (how many people does that effect in loss of credited service for pay, vacation, sick time, etc etc) Not to mention that MDA pilots were some how given stock options, back when there were pay outs. Furloughed pilots were not given those options but MDA/Mainline was. Ever since there were recalls, People wanted alpa to go after credit time for furlough since MDA pilots were given credit. The answer from many many people at alpa was, There aren't any people getting credited their time at MDA. They were shown pay stubs, and they still denied it.

anyways......alpa, from the bottom of US to the top of the organization knew what was going on. Knew there was a major screw up. Knew that to turn around and attempt to right the injustice, would be on the other side admitting they had done which they say they haven't, WHICH would give the MDA case all it needs to be a slam dunk, alpa in effect testifying against themselves. I believe alpa already offered one settlement of that case, I'm sure there will be another one soon.

Hopefully the MDA suit is the one which will unwrap all this crap, that the esteemed leaders of alpa created. And hopefully those people will never be able to be in a position to do this crap again....

 

[des nudo]

So, they were receiving furlough pay. I will assume that is a "yes" to my first question. Did they or did they not return to mainline after receiving a furlough recall?

Geez! It's like pulling teeth to get a straight answer to a VERY simple question.

Why can't you grasp this concept, sir. The 800 lb gorilla is alive and well...and will cause a large issue for ALPA, the NIC, and you as a result.

They were recalled to fly aircraft on the USAir certificate, using the USAir callsign, USAir training facilities, schedulers, etc etc...
Their furlough pay ceased upon arrival at MDA...They have been given credit for this time served at MDA up until recently (mistake by the company)..and the J4J pilots at participating carriers' were denied the opportunity to go to MDA as the company deemed it a J4J to J4J jump....in direct contrast to the legal status of the MDA operation..a la' MetroJet.

The union has passed a resolution to try to repair some of those giant wrongs by ALPA in aiming for DOH for pay and longevity...even for furloughed pilots...good on them, I say.

Now, you chew on that for awhile...it's a simple answer for you.

 

[cleardirect]

Actually the East pilots didn't agree to anything, they simply by ALPA constitutional requirement participated in an internal process in which bargaining position for seniority integration into a single contract would be established. They had no choice, it was an obligation under the ALPA constitution. A process that is under review in another court as being tampered with and alleged to have been based on knowingly wrong information.

A single contract has yet to be resolved and the new union has adopted a bargaining position for a single contract based on the requirements of its constitution. Pilot integration has never been resolved as the event that codifies it, a single contract still remains open and the new union is operating consistent with its own obligations.

The judge will have to decide if union members through their legally elected union have the right to determine their own seniority protocols and whether in the case of USAPA DOH & Conditions/Restrictions methodology, the policy is arbitrary or capricious and advances the interest of one group over another or if the policy applies equally to everyone. Clearly by entitlement, a union denies its members the right to advance based on merit, skills, or capacity and requires both its members and the company to adhere to seniority system. The judge will have to decide if seniority is a vested benefit and whether the length of employment is an inherently flawed system or provides equal opportunity for all. DOH/LOS has been tested in court many times and found to both fair and consistent with promoting the benefits of the labor as a whole. The argument behind DOH with conditions and restrictions is it seeks to maintain the status quo and allow for future advancement to be based on length of employment which is a quantifiable criterion that can be equally applied to all.

Obviously aside from the facts of the USAPA case, if the Nic list were found to have been produced with intentional incorrect information and enjoined by the act of another court, it would have great impact on its relevance in any DFR allegations in the case against USAPA.

Yes very nicely said Mr. Seham.

We have all heard the defense or reasoning why the east and USAPA believes that binding arbitration is not really binding.

It has been said many times by the east. That Nicolau was only a bargaining position.

Who were the parties to the bargain?

What was the end result of the bargain suppose to be?

So you are saying that if it the arbitration had gone DOH we still would have to bargain with the company for that list also? The company had the intimate discussion of what the list would be? Nicolau could have said DOH but the company could have changed it?


If as USAPA says about section 29 that the union name has changed but the obligation has not. USAPA is using and operating under the requirements of an ALPA negotiated contract. USAPA is also obligated to use that same arbitrated list. USAPA can not pick and choose which sections they want to believe in or enforce. It is all or nothing. The merger is in the T/A so are fleet minimums. Why is one enforceable but not the other?

 

[nic4us]

They have ALPA's list/bargaining position, which appears to have been corrupted in violation of their C & BL's. They have USAPA's list/bargaining position which is consistent with their C & BL's. Airways stated who they legally are required to negotiate with.

They also have a contract, the TA, of which they are a party, that says how integration will proceed.
They have already voiced their opinion against DOH in a joint statement of labor priciples.
They have already accepted the Nicolau list, and reimbursed the MECs then documented it in a letter of acceptance.
They are required to negotiate with USAPA, but they are not required to stick their necks out for them.
They have been unwilling to enforce USAPA's section 19 witch hunt fiasco.
They probably still hold a grudge for the USA today add.
They have been named in one lawsuit in which they are off the hook but in the spotlight.
They have a letter from Jeff Freund stating AWAPPA's intent for none compliance with NIC.
They have a duty of non-discimination in the workplace.

They like us are stuck between a rock and a hard place. the big difference is,
They are taking advantage of it.

 

[boeingplt]

So, they were receiving furlough pay. I will assume that is a "yes" to my first question.

Yes they were, and it ceased when they returned from furlough to MDA. Sounds a lot like recall.

 

[Crzipilot]

Interesting rumor I just heard, Supposedly might be confirmed soon. But the East furloughs slated for March April are not going to happen.......either from EVLOA, or attrition or something......

So maybe some good news for a few guys..

 

[Elevation]

Interesting rumor I just heard, Supposedly might be confirmed soon. But the East furloughs slated for March April are not going to happen.......either from EVLOA, or attrition or something......

So maybe some good news for a few guys..

Finally some good news...if true.

 

[Phoenix]

Please enlighten us by answering two simple questions...

1. Did the MDA pilots receive furlough notices from mainline prior to going to work at MDA?

2. Did those same pilots return to mainline in response to a furlough recall notice?

Yes or no answers will suffice.

Tazz, Your questions are irrelevant to the propriety of ALPA and company actions.

How the pilots were treated only determines how they were treated, not how ALPA and the company were legally obligated. You may as well ask if the pilots were put in jail. Their experience "enlightens" nothing absent an analysis with respect to the relevant rules.

What rule existed that the so-called MDA pilots were legally flying under the USAir certificate? The certificate...

 

[Phoenix]

Yes they were, and it ceased when they returned from furlough to MDA. Sounds a lot like recall.

When pilots started showing up at MDA ALPA sent out a communication crowing about pilots returning to Mainline.

 

[nostradamus]

ALPA and Aloha airlines. ALPA is an impotent union.

"According to ALPA’s president, Capt. Duane Woerth, the issue strikes at the heart of airline pilots’ collective-bargaining interests. "Unlike workers in most other industries, airline pilots make an enormous sacrifice if they decide to leave an employer for which they’ve worked any significant period of time. The seniority system forces them to restart their careers with a new airline at the bottom of the pecking order. Consequently, pilots are more ‘wed’ to their employers than most other workers. This is why job protections -- securing the pilots’ right to perform the flying that generates revenue for their respective carriers -- are essential safeguards in airline pilots’ contracts," Woerth said."

May 20, 2004 a Airlines Pilots Rebuke Management’s Outsourcing of Jobs

March 30 2008, Aloha Airlines Folds; Passenger Operations Cease

The circle of life in the airline business.



2004 article United Airlines to Help Aloha Airlines Customers

This development, where United attempts to establish an airline operation without the use of United aircraft or employees, is nothing less than the outsourcing of jobs to an international company, and clearly demonstrates that this management continues to make business decisions without regard to its pilots and other employees.

 

[Metroyet]

ALPA and Aloha airlines. ALPA is an impotent union.

"According to ALPA�€™s president, Capt. Duane Woerth, the issue strikes at the heart of airline pilots�€™ collective-bargaining interests. "Unlike workers in most other industries, airline pilots make an enormous sacrifice if they decide to leave an employer for which they�€™ve worked any significant period of time. The seniority system forces them to restart their careers with a new airline at the bottom of the pecking order. Consequently, pilots are more �€˜wed�€™ to their employers than most other workers. This is why job protections -- securing the pilots�€™ right to perform the flying that generates revenue for their respective carriers -- are essential safeguards in airline pilots�€™ contracts," Woerth said."

May 20, 2004 a Airlines Pilots Rebuke Management�€™s Outsourcing of Jobs

March 30 2008, Aloha Airlines Folds; Passenger Operations Cease

The circle of life in the airline business.



2004 article United Airlines to Help Aloha Airlines Customers

This development, where United attempts to establish an airline operation without the use of United aircraft or employees, is nothing less than the outsourcing of jobs to an international company, and clearly demonstrates that this management continues to make business decisions without regard to its pilots and other employees.

It's called the Railway Labor Act. Perhaps you've heard of it.

How successful has the APA been in recent years?
Did SWAPA stop the outsourcing of jobs to Canada (westjet) or Mexico, (volaris)?
Airtran? Industry leading contract have they?
Frontier? Yep. Doing a bang up Job of lowering the bar.
USAPA? Don't make me laugh...


All Aviation Unions are "impotent" as you say. It's hardly a level playing field as the RLA keeps all of us on a short leash. I realize you hate ALPA because the East guys Careers have patently sucked, and that ALPA didn't hand over AWA on a silver platter as a sacrificial Lamb you could forcibly recoup your losses from, but let's be honest. ALPA is on the same slanted playing field as all the rest. Your post is just rhetorical noise...just like your fake union usapa.

 

[Furlough Fodder]

Interesting rumor I just heard, Supposedly might be confirmed soon. But the East furloughs slated for March April are not going to happen.......either from EVLOA, or attrition or something......

So maybe some good news for a few guys..

That is good news if it is true. Let me tell you, hitting the bricks in this economic downturn is no picnic. My hope is that those other pilots don't have to join those of us that were shown the door.