US Pilots Labor Discussion

[No Land Green]

If it were not a windfall, they wouldn't be whining so much about having a JCBA. The East is their only "career expectation". No access to the East, no windfall.

 

[Freebird]

That is complete and utter b.s. If the Nic had been turned on the day after it came out, many west pilots could have stepped into MANY higher paying, better jobs on the very next bid. Jobs they never had the expectation of having. The very definition of wind fall.

What if we merged with Mesa tomorrow and it went straight relative position with no fences. The next bid the Mesa captain that was a CRJ900 captain jumps to A330 block holder captain. No windfall?

At least have the integrity to admit the windfall.

I will correct my statement by saying that AWA and AAA were flying similar equipment on similar routes. Thereby, relative seniority between the two carriers and the career expectations of the two, albeit different (depending on the time frame or years in question), is the most fair way. Explained by the Arbitrator in the preface.

Many West pilots are furloughed today that were employed the date of the merger. Upgrade at AWA was significantly quicker than upgrade at AAA. These are the facts. You can continue to come up with a myriad of scenarios to muddy the water but the facts of this case are perfectly clear.

I think we can agree that career expectations are not cast in stone. There are a number of scenarios that could alter your personal expectation (i.e. 9/11 or Merger). Would you agree? If so, do you think your career expectations should outweigh those from the carrier you merged with? Be honest Pi. We've all had our expectations change, like it or not. Do you plan to continue the fruitless attempt at rebuilding your expectations at the expense of the West? What is the right thing to do, in your mind? Seriously. We are getting nowhere-fast waiting for the courts to solve this.


USAPA = Basking in the sun of your dues money ($191,000)

 

[Freebird]

Another thing about windfalls. ALPA merger policy didn't say Thou Shalt Have No Windfalls. It said avoid. It is probably impossible to have no windfalls in a merger and there were some for east pilots. Under Nic a certain SAN commuter would be given immediate access to the top spot in PHX, something he had no expectation of. But, on the whole, the west got more, and they get greater as time goes by.

I agree with the first part of your statement. I stated that the process isnt perfect and the Arbitrator explained his position in the award. Again, the West didnt draft the award. Over all the west may have a younger group of pilots and that by no means should be used against them. Like the East pilots, the West have no control over the decsions of managment. Unfortunately, "It is what it is" for many of us.

In the end, alot of money and time has been wasted on this issue for one reason and that is the majority out East. And that is heading for another DFR and wasted time. How much has it cost you? Look around, we are being lapped by other carriers while we battle each other over scraps. USAPA is missing the boat big time fellas. We need a Varsity union, not JV.

You dont really think USAPA is capable of getting an industry standard contract, do you?

USAPA = On the bench.

 

[icehead]

Fairness is subjective to the parties involved. The Neutral Arbitrator did what we asked of him. He delivered what he felt was the most fair integration and gave his reasons. End of story.

In a vacuum, nothing you have said is unreasonable. However we don't live in a vacuum. ALPA in an unprecedented move used three arbitrators in the DL/NWA merger to reduce the risk of a bad award. WHY? Remember "fairness is subjective". And in a move to protect the Association ALPA put forward a joint contract for ratification that incorporated the unknown outcome of a yet to be decided award. Why? Why Wye River? The Three man Arbitration was a good move. They protected the Attrition of NWA with a pull and Plug mechanism. They also ran future projections to evaluate equity in future years with fences and restrictions. Not without some imbalance to be sure but far from the "cough" fair and equitable Nicolau award. Riding NWA jump-seats, the crews I have talked to seemed happy because of significant contractual gains. They "NWA" proposed DOH. A couple F/O's both said that no more than 5 years of LOS were lost on their side. The three man panel at NWA/DL worked hard to eliminate potential harm from the elastic concept called fairness. Nicolau did the opposite. He expanded the concept of fairness to render the term nearly meaningless. Maybe He was board or His prostate was acting up but Nicolau didn't get much right. However, procedurally He accomplished his mandate - He produced a list.

 

[Freebird]

If it were not a windfall, they wouldn't be whining so much about having a JCBA. The East is their only "career expectation". No access to the East, no windfall.

Its time to move forward. If there is another merger (AA?) your attrition will be eaten up. It's funny that you are willing to remain seperate at industry low rates in order to obtain a precious Captain seat. Is your ego really that small? You should've gone to Netjets, they're all "Captains".


USAPA = Kool-Aid for sale: 1.95% plus assessments. Inquire within.

 

[No Land Green]

You dont really think USAPA is capable of getting an industry standard contract, do you?

OH, and you think ALPA is or was? LMAO!!!!!!

Parker does NOT want to pay ANY of US "industry standard" wages no matter what seniority list or CB Agent is used. Do you really think using the Nic List is going to magically get you an industry standard contract?

 

[No Land Green]

Its time to move forward. If there is another merger (AA?) your attrition will be eaten up. It's funny that you are willing to remain seperate at industry low rates in order to obtain a precious Captain seat. Is your ego really that small? You should've gone to Netjets, they're all "Captains".


USAPA = Kool-Aid for sale: 1.95% plus assessments. Inquire within.

I am "move" ing "forward" with every equipment bid. Read your post again above. I think you were talking to yourself.

 

[Freebird]

In a vacuum, nothing you have said is unreasonable. However we don't live in a vacuum. ALPA in an unprecedented move used three arbitrators in the DL/NWA merger to reduce the risk of a bad award. WHY? Remember "fairness is subjective". And in a move to protect the Association ALPA put forward a joint contract for ratification that incorporated the unknown outcome of a yet to be decided award. Why? Why Wye River? The Three man Arbitration was a good move. They protected the Attrition of NWA with a pull and Plug mechanism. They also ran future projections to evaluate equity in future years with fences and restrictions. Not without some imbalance to be sure but far from the "cough" fair and equitable Nicolau award. Riding NWA jump-seats, the crews I have talked to seemed happy because of significant contractual gains. They "NWA" proposed DOH. A couple F/O's both said that no more than 5 years of LOS were lost on their side. The three man panel at NWA/DL worked hard to eliminate potential harm from the elastic concept called fairness. Nicolau did the opposite. He expanded the concept of fairness to render the term nearly meaningless. Maybe He was board or His prostate was acting up but Nicolau didn't get much right. However, procedurally He accomplished his mandate - He produced a list.

Im no defender of ALPA. I will say, that the NIC Award assuredly made the NWA/DAL and all involved do things differently. It looks as though the Frontier/Republic merger and its Arbitrator also learned from the mistakes of the process of AAA/AWA.


USAPA = No return on investment.

 

[luvthe9]

OH, and you think ALPA is or was? LMAO!!!!!!

Parker does NOT want to pay ANY of US "industry standard" wages no matter what seniority list or CB Agent is used. Do you really think using the Nic List is going to magically get you an industry standard contract?

The Nic is the first way to step on your back, and take what the kids believe they are entitled to. The next deal will be a crappy contract they will take once they have moved into your job, waiting it out. This is what their disciple Orenstein taught them at Mesa Indoc. School

 

[Freebird]

I am "move" ing "forward" with every equipment bid. Read your post again above. I think you were talking to yourself.

Shouldn't we all move forward? Or is this just about you? Again, is your ego so small that you are happy about moving up to Captain at $125 hour? Look around, this old grey mare aint what she used to be...


USAPA = The pay sucks, but at least I can tell my neighbors I'm a Captain.

 

[nevergiveup]

OH, and you think ALPA is or was? LMAO!!!!!!

Parker does NOT want to pay ANY of US "industry standard" wages no matter what seniority list or CB Agent is used. Do you really think using the Nic List is going to magically get you an industry standard contract?

He is right, the company will never offer an industry contract for a vote. They will never put two groups together for the liability issue alone. One side has admitted on tape hating the other. All of the post on this website alone is enough evidence. If there was an accident with two pilots not getting along, the jury award would put the company out of business as well a the FAA for allowing it to happen. and that's the way it is!

 

[No Land Green]

The Nic is the first way to step on your back, and take what the kids believe they are entitled to. The next deal will be a crappy contract they will take once they have moved into your job, waiting it out. This is what their disciple Orenstein taught them at Mesa Indoc. School

It's interesting 9'er, I see so much desperation in some of these West posters. I really think they are almost ready to come down to LOA 93 if it meant getting the Nic List in a JCBA. Maybe that is Parker's plan. It would not surprise me.

 

[nic4us]

You're embarrassing yourself.

Your numerous posts reek of desperation. How long was your furlough? Was it your first or second from the powerhouse known as US Air?

USAPA = Sinking fast.

Freebird,

He is apparently a '99 hire. S/he never worked at US Air. The hiring/furloughing was all Airways.

 

[Freebird]

OH, and you think ALPA is or was? LMAO!!!!!!

Parker does NOT want to pay ANY of US "industry standard" wages no matter what seniority list or CB Agent is used. Do you really think using the Nic List is going to magically get you an industry standard contract?

Correction; USAPA doesnt want to get an industry standard contract. They'd rather divide this pilot group and forgo unity. It's not whether Parker "wants" to pay Industy Standard, at this point he isnt being forced to, because USAPA is powerless and incapable of anything. He's just another person on the list laughing at USAPA. Sad, but true.


USAPA = "not-industy standard"

 

[luvthe9]

It's interesting 9'er, I see so much desperation in some of these West posters. I really think they are almost ready to come down to LOA 93 if it meant getting the Nic List in a JCBA. Maybe that is Parker's plan. It would not surprise me.

Exactly. Have you seen ONE east poster that wants anything to do with anything America West, past or present? None. All the desire comes from the kids who want the "prize" or so they call it. It is not going to happen. Just don't tell them!