US Pilots Labor Discussion

[cleardirect]

Crime is crime. The gentleman in the crime below was not let go because it happened in 1991. No excuse.


you still have the same dna as you did in 1991

POST REPORTED!!!!!

 

[sumadarson]

Was there a trial that I do not know about? Accusation are not facts. We learned about that with usapa's false RICO case. DISMISSED WITH PREJUDICE! Accusation all over the place nothing to back it up. Two federal courts said usapa was wrong.

Nothing has been proven so you really should be saying "alleged". Just trying to help a brother out. Slander is a ####!

Your pilots will be fired, bookmark this.

 

[BoeingBoy]

I found something wrong with Nic the first time I read it, Dave is senior to Dean,and I will go to my grave thinking that was wrong.

I assume that Dave is of "Save Dave" fame and Dean is Corbello (sp). You have every right to go to your grave thinking that was wrong, but that's life. Both side agreed to let an arbitrator decide and that's the result - Dave was active at the PID and Dean was furloughed (and I don't want to rehash the MDA thing - Nic decided they were furloughed).

You will never do it. Your bias is clear and you have no credibility.

Why not just admit that my answers aren't always to you liking so you cast them aside. Says volumes about who is really biased.

He seems to use pre-merger and post-merger as he sees fit. For example, he says that to agree with Brucia about the furloughed pilots would be using post-merger advancement, but he seems to use post-merger fleets and ratios, right? Where the east shrunk more than the west, yet Dean had 300 below him, but made him use his pre-merger status and stapled him. Page 23.

Dean had 300 below him in 2007 when the award was released (I assume, since he had no one below him flying mainline in 2005). It's hard to say that that's not post-merger, and it demonstrates what Nic said - active mainline pilots at the PID went above furloughed pilots at the PID.

He did use the 2007 fleet count (1-1-2007?) because to do otherwise would result in the lists of active pilots not matching the number of positions available at the time. I guess he could have used the May 2005 fleets corrected for the pre-merger announcement agreements for east aircraft returns, but to do so west would have a bigger fleet than existed on 1-1-2007 and east would have had a smaller fleet, which would mean the bottom west pilot would have been further up the list (assigned a slot higher than the then-current fleet had jobs) while the east bottom active would not have had a slot because the jobs ran out before the active pilots ran out.

Do you agree with clear that PID was May2005?

That's my understanding although I don't remember anything specific from the MEC saying that - not saying that there wasn't something put out but just that I don't remember it. That's kinda nuts and bolts info that really doesn't make much difference to the average line pilot. At the time a couple of weeks either way didn't make much difference. May was when the merger was announced (the 19th I think but don't hold me to that), so that's when it became all but certain that a merger was going to take place - that's the definition of a PID.

I assume the certified lists were for some date in May 2005 - I've never seen them but Nic mentions "the May 19, 2005 certified lists". I know that on the east side Resource Planning could crank out an accurate seniority list for any specific date. Don't know about the west equivalent of Resource Planning.

It's

???

Jim

 

[Freebird]

Please provide a link like I have. You can not, that is why you were not hired by any other airline but america west. You west pilots are losers, get over it.

You're embarrassing yourself.

Your numerous posts reek of desperation. How long was your furlough? Was it your first or second from the powerhouse known as US Air?

USAPA = Sinking fast.

 

[Pi brat]

Why not just admit that my answers aren't always to you liking so you cast them aside. Says volumes about who is really biased.



Dean had 300 below him in 2007 when the award was released (I assume, since he had no one below him flying mainline in 2005). It's hard to say that that's not post-merger, and it demonstrates what Nic said - active mainline pilots at the PID went above furloughed pilots at the PID.


Jim

You lost all credibility when you called me a child molester. Absent an apology, nothing you say matters. That action earned you a spot in my heart and mind that few others have managed.

So Nic decided that no furloughed pilot as of 5/19/05 would be senior to a non-furloughed pilot and rigged the numbers to make it happen. With the widebodies he didn't use pilots, he used positions. Dean, and around 300 below him had moved into positions vacated by east pilots, but he was not allowed to keep it. He didn't use the fleet from the PID, he used it from 2007, where the east had lost a larger % of hulls, and applied the ratios. That would be a post-merger fleet. He said he couldn't side with Brucia because it reflected post-merger movement, yet on page 23 he reasons his using 2007 data by saying "A January 1, 2007 list is also closer to the reality on the merged airline." The reality was that Dean had returned with 300 under him despite the fleet shrinking from......east attrition. He gave that to the west. Also from page 23:"As to staffing, we have, for a variety of reasons,used the jobs each side brought to the merger as amended(that would be post merger) by the shifts that occurred as of January 1 2007." But he didn't. He says the jobs, not pilots, but did not allow the east pilots to keep the amended jobs, he held them to their 2005 status.

 

[Freebird]

You lost all credibility when you called me a child molester. Absent an apology, nothing you say matters. That action earned you a spot in my heart and mind that few others have managed.

So Nic decided that no furloughed pilot as of 5/19/05 would be senior to a non-furloughed pilot and rigged the numbers to make it happen. With the widebodies he didn't use pilots, he used positions. Dean, and around 300 below him had moved into positions vacated by east pilots, but he was not allowed to keep it. He didn't use the fleet from the PID, he used it from 2007, where the east had lost a larger % of hulls, and applied the ratios. He said he couldn't side with Brucia because it reflected post-merger movement, yet on page 23 he reasons his using 2007 data by saying "A January 1, 2007 list is also closer to the reality on the merged airline." The reality was that Dean had returned with 300 under him despite the fleet shrinking from......east attrition. He gave that to the west. Also from page 23:"As to staffing, we have, for a variety of reasons,used the jobs each side brought to the merger as amended by the shifts that occured as of January 1 2007." But he didn't. He says the jobs, not pilots, but did not allow the east pilots to keep the amended jobs, he held them to their 2005 status.

Pi,

The East entered Binding Arbitration freely. As did the West. The neutral third party Arbitrator (hand picked by East and West) and two other pilot neutrals came up with an arbitrated list. Is it perfect? No. But they did the job of creating a list and settling an issue that the East and West couldnt settle on their own.

What are you missing?

USAPA = $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

 

[Pi brat]

Pi,

The East entered Binding Arbitration freely. As did the West. The neutral third party Arbitrator (hand picked by East and West) and two other pilot neutrals came up with an arbitrated list. Is it perfect? No. But they did the job of creating a list and settling an issue that the East and West couldnt settle on their own.

What are you missing?

USAPA = $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

I'm missing nothing. I've had your numbers for a while. You want to argue that the Nic was "fair", but when you are shown the windfalls, weird logic, etc., you revert to the "It doesn't matter, we agreed to binding arbitration" argument.

Why don't you stick to one? As I have suggested before, I would go with number two, can't really argue with that.

 

[Freebird]

Wait, I accused your america west pilots of drug running, drunk flying, drunk ceo driving and crossing picket lines first. Lets talk about this first and then we will get to the part about one of your soon to be fired chief pilots from america west that stole ss, passport, employee, numbers and email addresses.

You paint with a broad brush. Throwing rocks in a glass house is ill-advised. Rather than attack aimlessly, stay on task, it would improve your credibility. Overusing soundbites and snippets is a sign of a weak argument and really loses the reader.



USAPA = Recruiting Jihadists

 

[Freebird]

I'm missing nothing. I've had your numbers for a while. You want to argue that the Nic was "fair", but when you are shown the windfalls, weird logic, etc., you revert to the "It doesn't matter, we agreed to binding arbitration" argument.

Why don't you stick to one? As I have suggested before, I would go with number two, can't really argue with that.

Fairness is subjective to the parties involved. The Neutral Arbitrator did what we asked of him. He delivered what he felt was the most fair integration and gave his reasons. End of story.


USAPA = Hopin' and wishin' and prayin'...

 

[Pi brat]

Fairness is subjective to the parties involved. The Neutral Arbitrator did what we asked of him. He delivered what he felt was the most fair integration and gave his reasons. End of story.


USAPA = Hopin' and wishin' and prayin'...

Yeah I know Freebird, it's hard for you to claim integrity when you admit to windfalls but say "that's life". I forgot excuse #3, "The supposedly neutral guy did it!" And #4 "End of Story!" That one is a little off, as the story goes on and on and on.............


Integrity indeed.

 

[Freebird]

Yeah I know Freebird, it's hard for you to claim integrity when you admit to windfalls but say "that's life". I forgot excuse #3, "The supposedly neutral guy did it!" And #4 "End of Story!" That one is a little off, as the story goes on and on and on.............


Integrity indeed.

There are no windfalls in relative seniority. It doesnt matter how you slice it, the arbitrator did what we asked him to do. He came up with a list and stated his formula for his decision. Its a simple process, a means to an end. We can go back and forth as to why you think it's not fair but it means nothing. We have a lot of pilots who were basically stapled under your top 517. Again, the reasoning is spelled out in the award.

You have stated that once the courts rule on this issue, that you will accept the results and try to move forward. Why do the courts have to tell you that Binding Arbitration is final? Why should we trust that your group will suddenly find the integrity to abide? The list isnt perfect to everyone. I am sorry that 17 years at AAA was what it took to remain employed. The West didnt decide who was employed or who was furloughed. The West shouldnt have to justify their position and constantly defend itself from an overzealous anti-west union. But that is what you support. And here we are.

Your failure to honor that process has cost all of us a lot of money. And saved Parker, what $600 Million? Like I said, it's not perfect. USAPA will continue to fail this pilot group without unity. Who is the enenmy here? The West? Really?. Or Management?

Integrity lies in accepting the arbitration that we signed up for. There is no integrity in trying to resurrect your career at the expense of fellow pilots. We didnt ask for the merger.


USAPA = How much are we costing you today?

 

[BoeingBoy]

You lost all credibility when you called me a child molester. Absent an apology, nothing you say matters. That action earned you a spot in my heart and mind that few others have managed.

As I've said, the easties don't like being treated like Nosum treats the westies, myself, Jetz, etc - find the worst of the group and hang that accusation on everyone in the group. When (really if) Nos apologizes I'll do the same. Note that at that time, no one on the East had tried to rein Nosum in or even chastised him for his behavior. In fact, when Jetz hit him with the pedo broad brush, easties came to his defense and I warned that if the east was content with Nosum playing that game they would get the same from me. As I expected, you and others didn't like that broad brush applied to yourselves. As Nosum would say, you're a bunch of hypocrites.

Jim

 

[Pi brat]

As I've said, the easties don't like being treated like Nosum treats the westies, myself, Jetz, etc - find the worst of the group and hang that accusation on everyone in the group. When (really if) Nos apologizes I'll do the same. Note that at that time, no one on the East had tried to rein Nosum in or even chastised him for his behavior. In fact, when Jetz hit him with the pedo broad brush, easties came to his defense and I warned that if the east was content with Nosum playing that game they would get the same from me. As I expected, you and others didn't like that broad brush applied to yourselves. As Nosum would say, you're a bunch of hypocrites.

Jim

I'm not Nos. I ignored most of his posts and I can't remember all the responses but yeah, a lot of guys came out on jetz because to most people, especially parents, the label of child molester is much worse than drug runner, scab, drunken pilot or pretty much anything else.

It was an idiotic "game". What about your parents? Are they still around? Run Jimbo's game by them and see if they are proud of their little boy.

That is the kind of the logic people have used to defend their poor treatment of certain minorities and ethnic groups.

 

[Pi brat]

There are no windfalls in relative seniority.

That is complete and utter b.s. If the Nic had been turned on the day after it came out, many west pilots could have stepped into MANY higher paying, better jobs on the very next bid. Jobs they never had the expectation of having. The very definition of wind fall.

What if we merged with Mesa tomorrow and it went straight relative position with no fences. The next bid the Mesa captain that was a CRJ900 captain jumps to A330 block holder captain. No windfall?

At least have the integrity to admit the windfall.

 

[Pi brat]

Another thing about windfalls. ALPA merger policy didn't say Thou Shalt Have No Windfalls. It said avoid. It is probably impossible to have no windfalls in a merger and there were some for east pilots. Under Nic a certain SAN commuter would be given immediate access to the top spot in PHX, something he had no expectation of. But, on the whole, the west got more, and they get greater as time goes by.