US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

It must be tough living on the East Coast and having to commute to PHX. Are you stuck in stagnation?

I think that is metroyet! Angry F/O, west division, section leader-east.

 

[No Land Green]

Your AOL leaders are mostly F/Os, right?

Brat, you forgot to use one of their favorite adjectives with "F/O's"....."angry"

 

[No Land Green]

Why? Then they would have no excuse for delaying a contract and their "alternate hedge" would go away.

You would be better served to drop the scab b.s.

If the Company wanted an agreement, there would be one, regardless of the Section 22.

 

[No Land Green]

I think that is metroyet! Angry F/O, west division, section leader-east.

Agreed, that he is. Can't answer my debt free question either, even though he gloats about his earnings.

 

[Metroyet]

Are you debt free Metro?

WTF business is that of yours? Moreover, what relevance does my balance sheet have to do with the fact that you all choose to be the lowest paid major pilots in the western hemisphere?

 

[Metroyet]

I think that is metroyet! Angry F/O, west division, section leader-east.

Well I'll give you that one. I don't live in phx actually....damn close to it however.

 

[CallawayGolf]

I brought the Shuttle merger up because it was a non-DOH merger we've been through and it shows we know that mergers didn't always go DOH. In the Airwaves article the AOL only shared a small section of, it listed many mergers going back decades that weren't DOH. Contrary to desert legend, the east knew that something other than DOH was possible, and most guys I knew thought it was probable. You are wrong, The east did not demand DOH throughout the process- another desert legend. I've always thought you were one of the smarter westies, so if you won't listen I'm not going through it again, but how could we have demanded DOH all the way when the position going into arbitration was LOS? The east merger committee looked at several different type of lists. The Save-a-Dave attitude from the west convinced them they would not work.

Did you read the part about why the east might not have asked for fences? To ask for LOS and fences probably would have seemed a little over the top. But Nic didn't give us what we asked for so it was his responsibility to make it fair. Fences have been around a long time to ease groups together.

You didn't answer my question. How many east pilots do you know? How many have you talked to outside of this board? This place is not a good cross section of east pilots.

Let’s start with some quotes from the Nicolau Award and then you can tell me if you think any of these quotes is inaccurate. If they are accurate, then I will be up front and revise my earlier statement about pure DOH to correct it to say that US proposed DOH adjusted for LOS with conditions and restrictions that greatly favored east pilots. According to the award that east position was discussed but never changed in its nature.

The US Airways proposal was grounded on a pilot’s Date of Hire adjusted for length of service. That proposal placed the most senior America West pilot below some 900 US Airways pilots and integrated a number of furloughed US Airways pilots with active America West pilots.

(page 8)

Beyond this, any ratio system would, in US Airways’ words, ‘improperly produce unacceptable inequities and windfall gains for the America West pilots at the expense of the US Airways pilots’ and create unfairness throughout the list.

(page 9)

The US Airways pilots also imposed a number of seven-year conditions and restrictions on its adjusted DOH list and a series of quotas and ratios designed to do the work of the list for that period of time, all of which, except for domicile protection for America West pilots, favored US Airways pilots on both replacement and new aircraft as well as existing aircraft.

(page 9)

It [US Airways] also asserts, in arguing that senior furloughed US Airways pilots should precede junior active America West pilots.

(page 10)

Near the end of the proceeding there was some discussion of some elements of the US Airways proposal, but its nature never changed.

(page 13)

If the above doesn’t address your questions and concerns then please let me know what I missed as it relates to the arbitration facts and east positions held.

I’m not sure what it matters or how it would change the facts, but no I don’t personally know or associate with any east pilots. My opinions come from whatever factual sources I can attain. What people may or may not say in a social setting has little bearing on the SLI/JCBA facts which is all I am really interested in.

I'm open to dialog and learing why the above quotes do not support my initial assertions, except for the pure DOH which I have already admitted was incorrect. However, Nicolau states that US told him that any ratio system would produce unacceptable inequities. Sure seems to me that any ratio system wouldn't have been accepted. So it doesn't matter how the award crafted a ratioed list, it was destined for breach by the east - IMO.

 

[Pi brat]

Let’s start with some quotes from the Nicolau Award and then you can tell me if you think any of these quotes is inaccurate. If they are accurate, then I will be up front and revise my earlier statement about pure DOH to correct it to say that US proposed DOH adjusted for LOS with conditions and restrictions that greatly favored east pilots. According to the award that east position was discussed but never changed in its nature.

(page 8)

(page 9)

(page 9)

(page 10)

(page 13)

If the above doesn’t address your questions and concerns then please let me know what I missed as it relates to the arbitration facts and east positions held.

I’m not sure what it matters or how it would change the facts, but no I don’t personally know or associate with any east pilots. My opinions come from whatever factual sources I can attain. What people may or may not say in a social setting has little bearing on the SLI/JCBA facts which is all I am really interested in.

I'm open to dialog and learing why the above quotes do not support my initial assertions, except for the pure DOH which I have already admitted was incorrect. However, Nicolau states that US told him that any ratio system would produce unacceptable inequities. Sure seems to me that any ratio system wouldn't have been accepted. So it doesn't matter how the award crafted a ratioed list, it was destined for breach by the east - IMO.

I think all the quotes are accurate. The thing is, it was a negotiation/arbitration and the east merger committee was doing what the west merger committee was doing: putting what they thought was there best case forward. How about in the Nic where he said the west position was basically unchanged? How about the great west offer of what, 2500 stapled? Where in all of the proceedings did the west committee say, "Yeah, we will look at putting the top 500 or so east guys on top, we need to protect their widebodies"? They were trying to sell a case and it didn't work, but you cannot come up with all the answers of what might have been acceptable from what happened in the merger process.

 

[Metroyet]

I think all the quotes are accurate. The thing is, it was a negotiation/arbitration and the east merger committee was doing what the west merger committee was doing: putting what they thought was there best case forward. How about in the Nic where he said the west position was basically unchanged? How about the great west offer of what, 2500 stapled? Where in all of the proceedings did the west committee say, "Yeah, we will look at putting the top 500 or so east guys on top, we need to protect their widebodies"? They were trying to sell a case and it didn't work, but you cannot come up with all the answers of what might have been acceptable from what happened in the merger process.

So you're saying Nicalau was being fair to both sides...right?

 

[CallawayGolf]

Have you ever heard Doug say "What I meant was...."? Parker and Lakefield did say that, but I think you guys read more into it than was there. The way I interpreted it was that we wouldn't bring furloughed pilots off the street, put them in working pilot's seats, then furlough that pilot. That hasn't happened and wouldn't under a list with formerly furloughed pilots place senior to west pilots. As you said, the TA was the contractual result of the statements and I'm pretty sure it's not in there. I guess I will have to look it up since Freebird hasn't gotten back to me.

If you want to strictly define things that way, that is what the Nic would do. There are west furloughed pilots, that were furloughed under provisions of the TA, that would taking working east pilots position on the list.

Well I believe the joint-statement was more formal and carried more weight than Doug speaking off the cuff at a crew news or SOTA meeting. Doug sticks himself out there with no prepared remarks and entertains virtually any question that an employee may ask. It doesn’t matter if it’s Parker, Ben Stein, Brian Williams, or a seasoned politician you may respect, anyone speaking extemporaneously can make a statement that they have to go back and correct later. You can bet that a statement issued by two CEO’s about labor integration was carefully worded and was intended to influence the intended audience, namely the labor groups on both sides of the merger.

I’m not sure about strictly defining things in a pejorative sense. I believe that the intention of the statement and the conditions and restrictions placed on the arbitration board dictated the results:

1. Neither … shall cause, in and of itself, the displacement of any pilot from his or her current position.

(page 33)

2. No pilot on furlough on the effective date of the integrated seniority list may bump/displace an active pilot …

(page 33)

 

[Pi brat]

So you're saying Nicalau was being fair to both sides...right?

No.

 

[Pi brat]

Well I believe the joint-statement was more formal and carried more weight than Doug speaking off the cuff at a crew news or SOTA meeting.

I think the key word is "current".

 

[USA320Pilot]

Alleged Status Quo Violations and The Railway Labor Act

See Story

 

[CallawayGolf]

I think all the quotes are accurate. The thing is, it was a negotiation/arbitration and the east merger committee was doing what the west merger committee was doing: putting what they thought was there best case forward. How about in the Nic where he said the west position was basically unchanged? How about the great west offer of what, 2500 stapled? Where in all of the proceedings did the west committee say, "Yeah, we will look at putting the top 500 or so east guys on top, we need to protect their widebodies"? They were trying to sell a case and it didn't work, but you cannot come up with all the answers of what might have been acceptable from what happened in the merger process.

I think we are close to agreement on this. Both sides did what they thought they should to get what they wanted. However, because no compromises were genuinely sought and no middle ground could be found, both sides forfeited control over the SLI to an arbitrator who had absolute authority to craft the list that he felt was correct so long as it was within the C&Rs that were imposed on the process. From the moment Nicolau got involved both east and west no longer had any true say in what the outcome would be. At that point expectations for all pilots should have been - hope for the best but now you have to take what you get.

Personally I think that both sides could have proposed a ratioed list with some mutually protective C&Rs and avoided arbitration altogether. They didn’t and the award was issued; and what was issued was intended to be final and binding. Now, there is only one side refusing to accept the list. Only one side stated before and after the award was issued that any ratio system would be unacceptable. The list was a ratio and the east won’t accept it, at least until it is forced on them. I'll refrain from the moral implications of this since I know how the east detests such morality/integrity dialogs.

Even though the award favors the east with the top WB protected positions and generally a 2:1 ratio of slots, I don’t see many (any) west pilots taking the “unacceptable” stance with the award. So my issue isn’t really that the east didn’t propose a moderated position (though I think both sides should have), it is that they want to debate and dispute a final and binding arbitration award. The only two ways to move forward are for the east to accept the list willingly or unwillingly via a court or NMB process - IMO.

 

[CallawayGolf]

I think the key word is "current".

Perhaps. Are you saying that if Nicolau would update the list using 2011 status/position that you and the rest of the east would accept the list? If not, what are you saying?