US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

I think we are close to agreement on this. Both sides did what they thought they should to get what they wanted. However, because no compromises were genuinely sought and no middle ground could be found, both sides forfeited control over the SLI to an arbitrator who had absolute authority to craft the list that he felt was correct so long as it was within the C&Rs that were imposed on the process. From the moment Nicolau got involved both east and west no longer had any true say in what the outcome would be. At that point expectations for all pilots should have been - hope for the best but now you have to take what you get.

Personally I think that both sides could have proposed a ratioed list with some mutually protective C&Rs and avoided arbitration altogether. They didn’t and the award was issued; and what was issued was intended to be final and binding. Now, there is only one side refusing to accept the list. Only one side stated before and after the award was issued that any ratio system would be unacceptable. The list was a ratio and the east won’t accept it, at least until it is forced on them. I'll refrain from the moral implications of this since I know how the east detests such morality/integrity dialogs.

Even though the award favors the east with the top WB protected positions and generally a 2:1 ratio of slots, I don’t see many (any) west pilots taking the “unacceptable” stance with the award. So my issue isn’t really that the east didn’t propose a moderated position (though I think both sides should have), it is that they want to debate and dispute a final and binding arbitration award. The only two ways to move forward are for the east to accept the list willingly or unwillingly via a court or NMB process - IMO.

Yeah, we're pretty close. I wouldn't say that "any ratio system would, in US Airways’ words, ‘improperly produce unacceptable inequities and windfall gains for the America West pilots at the expense of the US Airways pilots’ and create unfairness throughout the list" is a statement that any slotted list would not be accepted, and I would say that the senior west pilots were in no position to say it is unacceptable, because they didn't have the majority status needed to do anything about it, even if it turns out to be temporary. I also don't agree that your ratio is right, because of what the earlier poster stated, he cleaned up the list to '07, but made the furloughed pilots use their status of '05.

 

[Pi brat]

Perhaps. Are you saying that if Nicolau would update the list using 2011 status/position that you and the rest of the east would accept the list? If not, what are you saying?

I do not believe that where we are today, with the people that are in charge of USAPA, they will accept anything other than DOH, unless forced to. I do believe that had something been agreed to before the vote, the east may have agreed, and I firmly believe that had Nic used the '07 status and slotted the list from top to bottom, we wouldn't be here. But it doesn't matter what I believe, he didn't, we didn't, so here we are.............

 

[CallawayGolf]

Yeah, we're pretty close. I wouldn't say that "any ratio system would, in US Airways’ words, ‘improperly produce unacceptable inequities and windfall gains for the America West pilots at the expense of the US Airways pilots’ and create unfairness throughout the list" is a statement that any slotted list would not be accepted, and I would say that they senior west pilots were in no position to say it is unacceptable, because they didn't have the majority status needed to do anything about it, even if it turns out to be temporary. I also don't agree that your ratio is right, because of what the earlier poster stated, he cleaned up the list to '07, but made the furloughed pilots use their status of '05.

That quote was directly from the award and seems to have been an accurate restatement of US Airways pilots' position before the board - any ratio is unacceptable. As to the ratios being correct, I'm again open to learning and improving my knowledge base. Having read the award multiple times, those ratios and protected groups are what I see.

Edit - I just read your last post and deleted the section already answered.

 

[cactusboy53]

It must be tough living on the East Coast and having to commute to PHX. Are you stuck in stagnation?

Actually, I live in the Mid-West (the only place I can afford a Captain's house on FO pay). The commute to PHX, PHL & CLT are about the same. If it makes financial sense to commute to PHL or CLT for an upgrade, so be it. I figure that by the time this comes to a conclusion I will have my choice of reserve captain in PHX or line holding captain in PHL, CLT or DCA.

I'm not stuck in anything other than the wonder of life. If I were to spend the rest of my days in the position that I am in right now (besides sitting upright, head slightly tilted), then that is the lot that I get (and that lot isn't bad). Further, I'm not angry. I am supremely disappointed that we are in year six since the merger has been announced and for all intents and purposes completed. Yet here we sit in this seniority quagmire simply because someone convinced a majority of voters that USAPA could get DOH, a contract in less than six months (for those of you counting it's been THREE YEARS!), and eventually a lower union dues fee.

GUESS WHAT? Date of Hire isn't going to happen. The east has been stuck on LOA 93 unnecessarily for three years. We still pay 1.95% union dues and since "we" pay so much for "professional fees" we may be short on cash (THINK ASSESSMENTS!). The winners are all of the USAPA executives pulling down wages in EXCESS of the seat that they can hold, LCC by virtue of the lower wages that they pay, and the lawyers for all parties.

Again...you decide. Are you willing to delay for nothing more than the left seat at RJ wages, only to have those wishing to bid PHL, CLT or DCA to jump above as line holders......OR........are you willing to accept reality, change the CBL to reflect fair representation for ALL US Airways pilots & the Nicolau Award as the seniority list and move forward to a new contract.

 

[Pi brat]

That quote was directly from the award and seems to have been an accurate restatement of US Airways pilots' position before the board - any ratio is unacceptable. As to the ratios being correct, I'm again open to learning and improving my knowledge base. Having read the award multiple times, those ratios and protected groups are what I see.

Edit - I just read your last post and deleted the section already answered.

When you keep saying that does it occur to you that you are talking to an east pilot that would have accepted a slotted list? That I personally know and discussed the chances of a slotted list coming from Nic? That we have a slotted list on the east now? I don't know how to explain it any better, but maybe think of it like Congress. You ever see CSPAN and some senator or congressman is standing up saying "We will not accept anything else for our country.........we MUST do this.......blah, blah,blah" to only come to a compromise later that does none of that? We just failed to compromise.

 

[cactusboy53]

That would be the beauty?! Wow, that says a lot. What I'm guessing you're saying is "it worked out great for me, that's the beauty of it."

BTW, Cleary is an A320 captain. Would it matter if he was an EMB captain or F/O? Your AOL leaders are mostly F/Os, right?

Wrong. Leonidas (I believe) a fair mix of Captains and First Officers. The contributors for Leonidas are also a fair mix of all seniority. We have captains that will retire in 17 months (that most certainly not see the end of this nonsense) that have contributed in EXCESS of the highest level! Now that's INTEGRITY!

As long as we are talking seniority, why exactly is the NAC (perhaps the one of the MOST IMPORTANT committees) staffed with three formerly FURLOUGHED first officers (that had the merger not take place would most assuredly NEVER returned to work at AAA) that have NO EXPERIENCE in contract negotiations?

I would say that USAPA is staffed with far more junior pilots (looking exclusively at the AAA seniority list provided to George Nicolau), as compared to the people involved with Leonidas...but that is my opinion.

 

[CallawayGolf]

When you keep saying that does it occur to you that you are talking to an east pilot that would have accepted a slotted list? That I personally know and discussed the chances of a slotted list coming from Nic? That we have a slotted list on the east now? I don't know how to explain it any better, but maybe think of it like Congress. You ever see CSPAN and some senator or congressman is standing up saying "We will not accept anything else for our country.........we MUST do this.......blah, blah,blah" to only come to a compromise later that does none of that? We just failed to compromise.

Yeah, I get it. However you chastised me yesterday for predicting the future when I said the east wouldn't have accepted any ratio list. While that may well be an unknown event, what isn't in dispute is that the east negotiators claimed any ratio list would be unacceptable and that when a ratio list came out with a fair number of protections and benefits for the east, they rejected it. If past performance is oftentimes the best predictor of future results, then I still maintain that my opinion is/was correct for the east leadership and perhaps up to 51% of east pilots who prefer the current situation to any kind of resolution.

 

[Pi brat]

As long as we are talking seniority, why exactly is the NAC (perhaps the one of the MOST IMPORTANT committees) staffed with three formerly FURLOUGHED first officers (that had the merger not take place would most assuredly NEVER returned to work at AAA) that have NO EXPERIENCE in contract negotiations?

Yeah, the west guy resigned. Had this merger not happened most assuredly you would have joined them as furloughed.

Captain or F/O, I don't care, that doesn't determine their skill/worth.

 

[Pi brat]

If past performance is oftentimes the best predictor of future results, then I still maintain that my opinion is/was correct for the east leadership and perhaps up to 51% of east pilots who prefer the current situation to any kind of resolution.

Of course, you're right, silly me. :blink:

 

[cleardirect]

Yeah, we're pretty close. I wouldn't say that "any ratio system would, in US Airways’ words, ‘improperly produce unacceptable inequities and windfall gains for the America West pilots at the expense of the US Airways pilots’ and create unfairness throughout the list" is a statement that any slotted list would not be accepted, and I would say that the senior west pilots were in no position to say it is unacceptable, because they didn't have the majority status needed to do anything about it, even if it turns out to be temporary. I also don't agree that your ratio is right, because of what the earlier poster stated, he cleaned up the list to '07, but made the furloughed pilots use their status of '05.

Yes he cleaned up the list. Are you saying that you would have preferred that he used all the names in 2005 to be on the yes?

Yes or no please.

 

[cleardirect]

I do not believe that where we are today, with the people that are in charge of USAPA, they will accept anything other than DOH, unless forced to. I do believe that had something been agreed to before the vote, the east may have agreed, and I firmly believe that had Nic used the '07 status and slotted the list from top to bottom, we wouldn't be here. But it doesn't matter what I believe, he didn't, we didn't, so here we are.............

I think Nicolau explains this very well.

As evidenced by Captain Brucia's Concurring and Dissenting
Opinion, attached hereto, he disagrees with this aspect of the Award.
His view is that at a minimum consideration should be given to those
US Airways pilots already recalled; that treatment of them as active
pilots consistent with their present status would serve to recognize
the substantial time they had already invested in their airline. In the
majority's view, this gives weight to post-merger expectations rather
than pre-merger expectations, contrary to what ALPA policy foresees.
In so doing it fails to recognize the prospects the US Airways pilots
faced before the merger; including the reduction of the active pilot
work force from 5500 to close to 3000, the sharp reduction in the size
31
of the fleet since the 1990's; the absence of recalls though many
active pilots were retiring; the successive bankruptcies and the
inability to successfully emerge from that condition. When all that is
considered, in the majority's view, it is far more appropriate to
combine those who brought jobs to the merger, particularly when the
protection of career expectations is of such overriding concern. This is
not to say, of course, that this merger is designed or should be
thought of as a model for others that may follow. As stated at the
beginning, each case does turn on its own facts. As a consequence,
different facts may produce different results. Here, a majority is of the
opinion that the facts of this case justify our conclusion.

This is what Brucia would have like to had.

At a minimum, it is my opinion that the US Airways pilots, who had already
received notice of their opportunity to return to work from furlough, should have received
some consideration for the substantial time they have already invested in their airline. In
the event that the "new" company again decided to furlough pilots in the near future,
3
conditions and restrictions could have been used to insure a measure of protection for the
junior America West pilots to protect them from furlough for some period of time

You see he says give the RECALLED furloughed pilots SOME consideration. Not full not consideration but some. It also would have required C&R to protect the west pilots. Meaning that in a furlough those same east pilots would be furloughed again. There were about 300 RECALLED furloughed pilot during the 2 years between the announcement and tyhe arbitration. So if those 300 furloughed pilot would have been given SOME consideration you would be OK with the rest of the award and would have accepted the Nicolau?

 

[Pi brat]

Yes he cleaned up the list. Are you saying that you would have preferred that he used all the names in 2005 to be on the yes?

Yes or no please.

Sorry you don't get to dictate the terms of my answers. If he was going to take out the guys that were gone, he should have replaced them with the ones that took their place, then slotted at an appropriate ratio.

 

[sumadarson]

I think Nicolau ................................






You see he says .......................... Nicolau....................

Oh the memories you must have

 

[cleardirect]

Sorry you don't get to dictate the terms of my answers. If he was going to take out the guys that were gone, he should have replaced them with the ones that took their place, then slotted at an appropriate ratio.

You do understand what a PID is correct?

That locks the facts. At the PID those pilots were FURLOUGHED. My question is do you want the 2005 east pilots on the list or not?

Would that have made you happy if he had taken 300 east pilots that left and replaced them wth 300 furloughed pilots? Would you have accepted that list?

 

[cactusboy53]

Yeah, the west guy resigned. Had this merger not happened most assuredly you would have joined them as furloughed.

Captain or F/O, I don't care, that doesn't determine their skill/worth.

The ONLY experienced person on that committee (and frankly the one who should have been in charge, based on seniority AND experience) asked the BPR time and time again for help (as the inexperienced NAC members couldn't negotiate a new contract if one was delivered gift wrapped at their feet). That committee member gave the NAC an ultimatum to help properly staff the NAC.......guess what? Cleary & BPR poo-pooed his request (imagine the BPR not giving any credence to a PHX based pilot...what are the odds???).

According to industry EXPERTS, America West Airlines (at the time of the merger) was growing, hiring, and upgrading. Wall Street couldn't throw enough money at Mr. Parker & AWA (I don't think you can say the same thing for AAA).

Pi;
We know exactly what you, sum/nos, luv, crazy, NLG and the rest of the kids think. These messages are intended for the lurkers that may read this stuff.

Lurkers;
Are you tired of living on RJ wages? Have you figured out that DOH isn't going to happen? Have you figured out that USAPA is a paper tiger with NO TEETH? Mr. Parker and LCC are earning MILLIONS off of your backs as they watch USAPA's fruitless chase for Date of Hire. Ultimately the Nicolau list is the ONLY list that goes forward (even to a merger with any other carrier). Isn't it time for a change?

Please take the time to visit the following website: http://www.reformusapa.com/

Help us make USAPA the union that it was destined to be!