US Pilots Labor Discussion

[A320 Driver]

F U scab!!

Add alcohol and the posts get smaller and more pointed!

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[A320 Driver]

Wrong again. Nic gave the East ~2 of every 3 positions starting below the 517 all the way to the 1st furloughed. Look at a DOH list - how many of the top 1000 positions go to the West vs the East? The top 2000?

I'll repeat what I've said since USAPA put out it's C&R's back in what...2008. They're designed to keep the West pilots in PHX while East pilots move up plus slowly take over in PHX. Even if you're right about a captain displaced from PHX can get an equivalent captain job on the East, how long will that west pilot be the bottom guy/gal on the roster - can you say years? During those years, is the west pilot exempt from displacement? Not that I've seen, so a few bids later he's displaced and is then fighting with ex-furloughees for a job at the bottom.

Jim

That's not exactly how NIC did it... A former MEC member broke the code on it. Take out the 517, the supervisory pilots, the furloughed pilots and those on LTD. Take the rest and apply a STRAIGHT ratio. NIC could have used a pocket calculator for all I know, but that is how it works out.

Driver B)

 

[nevergiveup]

I believe the no furloughed pilot taking an active pilot's position was stated in the joint statement on labor integration signed by Parker and Lakefield. This statement provided the foundational framework for the negotiated TA. So, it would seem that giving furlough pilots higher seniority status than active west pilots would have violated those stated principles. Without looking at the documents side by side I'm not sure of the legal implications if NIC had violated the principles, but it seems unlikely that he would since he was certainly aware of Management's requirements for a certified list. NIC got it right by definition that what both MECs hired him to do (make a fair decision that the couldn't come up with themselves). If you disagree then put the NIC on trial and prove to a court that award violated the SLI requirements provided to him by the MECs and ALPA national.

So should the furloughed pilots have been on the list? Just ask American and see what they were told by their arbitrator. Merge with them and you can bet their furloughed pilots will be part of the list! But then they should be.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Can anyone imagine sumadarson and nic4us sharing a cockpit for four days?

I can think of at least a dozen other pairings made up of just the posters on this forum which would be a very bad idea. The first time we experience an incident, or worse, the attorneys will harvest all of these posts, on all of the diverse forums, emails, phone texts, comments made to LCC leadership during crew visits, incidents of comments and verbal confrontations at airports and hotels, jumpseat denials, insulting stickers publicly displayed, etc.

And all of this going back several years now.

And the FAA well aware of this troubling pattern.

Like someone said, CRM is more than just sitting in the same cockpit. It's about establishing and maintaining an atmosphere of relaxed alertness in which mutual respect is the keystone for a working relationship where each has the other's back. Where open and free communication and dialog is encouraged and necessary.

Avoid bidding as a solution is a pipe dream, a band aid on a gaping wound.

I just don't see it. Separate operations may turn out to be the 800 pound gorilla in the "Safety First" campaign.

Just sayin.

 

[Pi brat]

The shuttle? Not sure what that has to do with the HP/US merger. Seems like a very different situation to me. What I know is that the east demanded DOH or nothing throughout the process and then squealed and threw a temper tantrum when they didn't get DOH. I'm not saying there are not reasonable and rational east pilots, they just don't have control over the union or the strategic decisions it makes. We can all guess what might have been, but what we have is a ratio integration that protects more east positions than west and those in control on the east refuse to accept it.

If the east had proposed fences and didn't get them, you might have something to lament. However, the east went for DOH even in the face of knowing NIC wasn't going for it and then they came apart emotionally when they didn't get what they were told they wouldn't get. My point was that NIC abided by the process and the SLI framework and gave the pilots what they asked him for, an integrated seniority list that he felt was right and fair and equitable. I see nothing to indicate that with a few adjustments but not DOH that the east would have accepted it. You might have, but the majority, in my opinion, would not have. Actions speak much louder than words.

I brought the Shuttle merger up because it was a non-DOH merger we've been through and it shows we know that mergers didn't always go DOH. In the Airwaves article the AOL only shared a small section of, it listed many mergers going back decades that weren't DOH. Contrary to desert legend, the east knew that something other than DOH was possible, and most guys I knew thought it was probable. You are wrong, The east did not demand DOH throughout the process- another desert legend. I've always thought you were one of the smarter westies, so if you won't listen I'm not going through it again, but how could we have demanded DOH all the way when the position going into arbitration was LOS? The east merger committee looked at several different type of lists. The Save-a-Dave attitude from the west convinced them they would not work.

Did you read the part about why the east might not have asked for fences? To ask for LOS and fences probably would have seemed a little over the top. But Nic didn't give us what we asked for so it was his responsibility to make it fair. Fences have been around a long time to ease groups together.

You didn't answer my question. How many east pilots do you know? How many have you talked to outside of this board? This place is not a good cross section of east pilots.

 

[Pi brat]

Add alcohol and the posts get smaller and more pointed!

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!

I hope alcohol is the excuse! :blink:

 

[Pi brat]

I believe the no furloughed pilot taking an active pilot's position was stated in the joint statement on labor integration signed by Parker and Lakefield. This statement provided the foundational framework for the negotiated TA. So, it would seem that giving furlough pilots higher seniority status than active west pilots would have violated those stated principles. Without looking at the documents side by side I'm not sure of the legal implications if NIC had violated the principles, but it seems unlikely that he would since he was certainly aware of Management's requirements for a certified list. NIC got it right by definition that what both MECs hired him to do (make a fair decision that the couldn't come up with themselves). If you disagree then put the NIC on trial and prove to a court that award violated the SLI requirements provided to him by the MECs and ALPA national.

Have you ever heard Doug say "What I meant was...."? Parker and Lakefield did say that, but I think you guys read more into it than was there. The way I interpreted it was that we wouldn't bring furloughed pilots off the street, put them in working pilot's seats, then furlough that pilot. That hasn't happened and wouldn't under a list with formerly furloughed pilots place senior to west pilots. As you said, the TA was the contractual result of the statements and I'm pretty sure it's not in there. I guess I will have to look it up since Freebird hasn't gotten back to me.

If you want to strictly define things that way, that is what the Nic would do. There are west furloughed pilots, that were furloughed under provisions of the TA, that would taking working east pilots position on the list.

 

[nevergiveup]

Can anyone imagine sumadarson and nic4us sharing a cockpit for four days?

I can think of at least a dozen other pairings made up of just the posters on this forum which would be a very bad idea. The first time we experience an incident, or worse, the attorneys will harvest all of these posts, on all of the diverse forums, emails, phone texts, comments made to LCC leadership during crew visits, incidents of comments and verbal confrontations at airports and hotels, jumpseat denials, insulting stickers publicly displayed, etc.

And all of this going back several years now.

And the FAA well aware of this troubling pattern.

Like someone said, CRM is more than just sitting in the same cockpit. It's about establishing and maintaining an atmosphere of relaxed alertness in which mutual respect is the keystone for a working relationship where each has the other's back. Where open and free communication and dialog is encouraged and necessary.

Avoid bidding as a solution is a pipe dream, a band aid on a gaping wound.

I just don't see it. Separate operations may turn out to be the 800 pound gorilla in the "Safety First" campaign.

Just sayin.

Separate ops is much better than burnt metal. Scenario number 12,568: Once the company needs a combined operation, they will reject the NIC as being cost prohibitive as it has prevented combined operations to this point. They should be able to do this as the NIC will not have been implemented and is their legal right to do so. What happens next I do not know...probably another pay cut.

 

[No Land Green]

I hope alcohol is the excuse! :blink:

I think he is "angry".........FO???.....

 

[cactusboy53]

That's not exactly how NIC did it... A former MEC member broke the code on it. Take out the 517, the supervisory pilots, the furloughed pilots and those on LTD. Take the rest and apply a STRAIGHT ratio. NIC could have used a pocket calculator for all I know, but that is how it works out.

Driver B)

......and that's the beauty of the mediation and the final & binding arbitration. Once both parties fail to come to an agreement, they sign on the dotted line to abide by the decision(s). It doesn't matter if the arbitrator used a chimpanzee and fling his poo on a wall to assign seniority.

IF you read the complete document, you would be able to see the logic. They took neither the West's proposal or the East's proposal (although to be fair one party was as far as one could be in demands and expectations). The arbitrator told one party that their proposal was appropriate, and he told the other party that DATE OF HIRE wasn't going to happen.

Argue fairness all you want, IT IS FINISHED. It may take 20+ years to complete this, but it will be completed. We will all have lost HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of dollars, time off and contract improvements that will NEVER be recaptured.

Before you bring it up again.....the Wye River "proposal" was a non-starter. The Nicolau award was final and binding. No party attending any Blue Ribbon Panel, Rice Committee or Wye River festival had any right to toss or change any portion of the Nicolau Award. Further, there is no party or person that has that right either.

We are where we are because one party REFUSES to accept the legal circumstances. The other party is merely defending it's position. We stand FIRMLY on legal, ethical & moral grounds. We are funded (especially every time el presidente opens his pie hole) both internally and externally.

You decide. Do you wish to delay further and watch E190 Captain Cleary and First Officer Parrella (and all the others) gain HUGE financially, or do you wish to move on and pressure the company for a fair (and frankly much better) contract?

Tick Toc

 

[Metroyet]

They should be able to do this as the NIC will not have been implemented and is their legal right to do so. What happens next I do not know...probably another pay cut.

No. Not another paycut...another lawsuit. If the company had any "legal right" to abandon the nic. they would have done so long ago. When the company lawyers are in front of a Judge they miraculously have moments of clarity whereby they actually remember what it was they signed and agreed to via the Transition Agreement. For some reason, those facts are a little hazy when not under oath.

The Nic. is an immovable reality. V.P. Scab Mowery is lying to you.

 

[No Land Green]

No. Not another paycut...another lawsuit. If the company had any "legal right" to abandon the nic. they would have done so long ago. When the company lawyers are in front of a Judge they miraculously have moments of clarity whereby they actually remember what it was they signed and agreed to via the Transition Agreement. For some reason, those facts are a little hazy when not under oath.

The Nic. is an immovable reality. V.P. Scab Mowery is lying to you.

Are you debt free Metro?

 

[No Land Green]

......and that's the beauty of the mediation and the final & binding arbitration. Once both parties fail to come to an agreement, they sign on the dotted line to abide by the decision(s). It doesn't matter if the arbitrator used a chimpanzee and fling his poo on a wall to assign seniority.

IF you read the complete document, you would be able to see the logic. They took neither the West's proposal or the East's proposal (although to be fair one party was as far as one could be in demands and expectations). The arbitrator told one party that their proposal was appropriate, and he told the other party that DATE OF HIRE wasn't going to happen.

Argue fairness all you want, IT IS FINISHED. It may take 20+ years to complete this, but it will be completed. We will all have lost HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of dollars, time off and contract improvements that will NEVER be recaptured.

Before you bring it up again.....the Wye River "proposal" was a non-starter. The Nicolau award was final and binding. No party attending any Blue Ribbon Panel, Rice Committee or Wye River festival had any right to toss or change any portion of the Nicolau Award. Further, there is no party or person that has that right either.

We are where we are because one party REFUSES to accept the legal circumstances. The other party is merely defending it's position. We stand FIRMLY on legal, ethical & moral grounds. We are funded (especially every time el presidente opens his pie hole) both internally and externally.

You decide. Do you wish to delay further and watch E190 Captain Cleary and First Officer Parrella (and all the others) gain HUGE financially, or do you wish to move on and pressure the company for a fair (and frankly much better) contract?

Tick Toc

It must be tough living on the East Coast and having to commute to PHX. Are you stuck in stagnation?

 

[Pi brat]

......and that's the beauty of the mediation and the final & binding arbitration. Once both parties fail to come to an agreement, they sign on the dotted line to abide by the decision(s). It doesn't matter if the arbitrator used a chimpanzee and fling his poo on a wall to assign seniority.

That would be the beauty?! Wow, that says a lot. What I'm guessing you're saying is "it worked out great for me, that's the beauty of it."

BTW, Cleary is an A320 captain. Would it matter if he was an EMB captain or F/O? Your AOL leaders are mostly F/Os, right?

 

[Pi brat]

If the company had any "legal right" to abandon the nic. they would have done so long ago.

Why? Then they would have no excuse for delaying a contract and their "alternate hedge" would go away.

You would be better served to drop the scab b.s.