US Pilots Labor Discussion

[CallawayGolf]

East 25 yr guys will never see the 330 as they near retirement because 1100+ junior (hired 13 year after) guys will be above them on the Nic.
So, instead of retiring at S/N 100, they would retire at S/N 1200.
It ain't about today or tomorrow-no bump, no flush takes care of that - its 10-15 yrs down the road.
Kapeesh?

First off, those 1100+ west pilots aren’t junior to the guys below them on the NIC. They had a seniority number at AWA that was integrated with their east counterparts on a new combined list. Seniority, longevity, and DOH are all different terms with different meanings. West pilots lost seniority status in the NIC because of the top 517 protected east positions while the east gained. It’s all part of the integration process.

The merger resulted in more AC, more CO/FO seats and positions, more city pairs, more international flights, more and newer WB components to the fleet. You want to assume that the numerator changed while the denominator stays the same giving your downtrodden viewpoint some legs. The reality is that with the merger both the numerator and the denominator grew proportionally which is why a ratio integration of the combined groups is fair and equitable for both sides.

Ten to fifteen years down the road? As PI might say, how can you say that? Who knows what might happen down the road? Nobody. US could grow, shrink, merger, acquire, liquidate. Heck with a $14T national debt and a government with spending habits that would make a drunken sailor blush, the USA might not be here in 10 years. We could be insolvent and have communist China come over and repossess all of our government, corporate and private assets. We can play what if till the cows come home and it wouldn’t change the fact that NIC protected the east WB positions, effectively protected every pilot’s 2005 seniority positions for equipment/status, and ensured that the east pilots effectively got two positions for every one position the west received, which is roughly the size of each group’s pre-merger population. NIC got it right and you guys just keep dreaming up ways to justify your breach of contractual obligations under the TA.

Nevertheless, why don’t you just prove Tashima and Graber to be correct? Put the NIC in and get a TA out for a vote. If these prognostications are correct then it will never pass. I wonder why the east is so afraid of this strategy?

 

[No Land Green]

Nevertheless, why don’t you just prove Tashima and Graber to be correct? Put the NIC in and get a TA out for a vote. If these prognostications are correct then it will never pass. I wonder why the east is so afraid of this strategy?

There is nothing past or present worth putting out for a vote. Sorry, it's more than section 22. That's why we are "afraid of this strategy".

 

[CallawayGolf]

There is nothing past or present worth putting out for a vote. Sorry, it's more than section 22. That's why we are "afraid of this strategy".

By all means, please expand on this. Why isn't there anything worth putting out for a vote? Now don't blame Management; its the CBA's job to create leverage and negotiate from a position of strength. So, besides looking like impotent amatures, what has USAPA done on the non-seniority sections of the contract?

 

[No Land Green]

By all means, please expand on this. Why isn't there anything worth putting out for a vote. Now don't blame Management; its the CBA's job to create leverage and negotiate from a position of strength. So, besides looking like impotent amatures, what has USAPA done on the non-seniority sections of the contract?

Kirby Pay Rates-NO

99 hours a month-NO

PBS- NO

Sorry not that desperate as you are. Obviously it's all about the Nic Number. You really should have AOL go offer Parker LOA 93 with the Nic, I think you are just about there judging by the desperation displayed by the West. You never know, he might bite. LMAO

Upward movement on the East is GREAT!!!!! Even with LOA 93!!!!!!

 

[A320 Driver]

First off, those 1100+ west pilots aren’t junior to the guys below them on the NIC. They had a seniority number at AWA that was integrated with their east counterparts on a new combined list. Seniority, longevity, and DOH are all different terms with different meanings. West pilots lost seniority status in the NIC because of the top 517 protected east positions while the east gained. It’s all part of the integration process.

You can't lose what you NEVER HAD!!! You don't RATE those positions because of who you worked for.


Driver <_<

 

[CallawayGolf]

You can't lose what you NEVER HAD!!! You don't RATE those positions because of who you worked for.


Driver <_<

Funny I never mentioned "lose", "rate" or "worked for" in my post. However I wasn't aware those were contained in the Transition Agreement. Can you please refresh me on where the terms and conditions of the TA state that those positions were reserved for the east pilots?

Thanks,

CG

 

[crazystnic]

Ok. Enjoy LOA93 then. You'll wind up with about the same number of upgrades under separate ops as you will with the Nic. Choice has always been the East's.

Aqua,
thanks for finally getting it, glad it's up to us....
and no Clear it wont go to a vote because it's a POS so far.. if we ever get to a place of a contract is ready we can discuss sending it out..
Remember the NAC and BPR has to sign off on a deal to send out.
that wont happen with the POS on the table., not even under your beloved ALPO

 

[USA320Pilot]

Think This Through, Damage The Company You Are Negotiating With?

See Story

 

[Pi brat]

I'm sure I saw your post but I haven't seen AOL brochure number four so I didn't have a basis with which to evaluate your comment. I'm sure I have now forgotten whatever point it was you were making.

Okay, then on a combined seniority list with no fences, meaning any pilot can move to any base or equipment type he/she can hold, what ratio would the east have found acceptable which also didn't leave the door open for one side to come over and displace someone from the other group? It's hard to imagine how that scenario could work out mathematically. On the other hand, if east wanted a LT fence to keep ops separate, where was that in the proposal to the arbitration board?

I'm willing and eager to hear how you propose to integrate the two populations into a single list which both protects the current status of pilots and also protects the envisioned opportunities for only one group of pilots 5, 10, 15 years in the future. It seems like a logical conundrum to me, but let’s have your vision of how that would work.

From my perspective all evidence leads to east collectively only being willing to tolerate a DOH list and that any other moderated/mediated/arbitrated decision that moves away from that supposed gold standard is cause for total meltdown and breach of any and all agreements that don’t support the DOH mantra. It’s just my opinion of course because I don’t know the future any better than you, Parker or Nicolau.

Thanks for admitting that you cannot predict the future. It is a pet peeve of mine when people(both sides) state unequivocally that "this" or "that" would have happened. You can lay odds, but that's about it.

As for what may have been enough enough to keep the east from going into an all out war, I think there could have been a lot of different solutions, but to me I think the main problem for the majority of east pilots was the long longevity furloughed pilots getting no credit for their time. I'm not sure why you exclude fences, they have been pretty commonplace in past arbitrations. IMO, the east didn't ask for them because in a LOS situation they would not be needed, but that didn't mean we were opposed. I think a variable slot, with a slight bias for the bottom of the east pilots would have been enough. One that would have put Dave in the middle of our furloughs. Then fence current widebodies for about 10 years and a 5 year fence on the west to keep east out, and protect the west positions.

I was told that the east had a list that would have done just what you said, but that the west was unwilling to allow even one furloughed pilot below Dave, so they thought it best to go to arbitration with LOS.

If you think the east would have only accepted DOH, why didn't they propose it, and fight for it with the shuttle? Traderjake and Jim have told you that many PI pilots believe in relative position(they are right, just don't let them know I said so )), so what about them?

How many east pilots so you actually know? You say the evidence points to...., but have you had any real conversations with any? Does all your information come from AOL?

 

[Pi brat]

Are you now predicting the future? I thought you just said predicting was in the arena of - who could possibly know that? What isn’t a prediction is that it can be mathematically shown that there were some 1700 east furloughs at the time of the merger and that some 80 percent of the east had an earlier DOH with AAA than their west counterparts did at AWA. Those numbers would pose a substantial threat to active west pilots immediately following a DOH system and a ratified CBA. Supposing that if the west shut down at some point in the near or distant future is a far cry from imposing DOH on the system which could literally displace 80% of west pilots. Does the NIC even come close to potentially displacing 80% of east pilots even in the highly unlikely event that PHX is closed?

Key word: likely. Even if the PHX doesn't shutdown, I see a good chance for a reduction in the operation and/or a shift of time to the east. Are there any other major US airlines with their biggest base towards the west coast? The east coast base gives a head start on the day that is hard to catch up with on the west because, except for redeyes, there are not as many opportunities for flying late at night. I'm no expert, but the new rest rules appear to make this worse. I see that shift as being a major problem with the Nic or DOH as currently proposed.

One thing is that USAPA proposes some fences/protection for the west, the Nic has NONE for east.

 

[Pi brat]

Ten to fifteen years down the road? As PI might say, how can you say that? Who knows what might happen down the road? Nobody. US could grow, shrink, merger, acquire, liquidate. Heck with a $14T national debt and a government with spending habits that would make a drunken sailor blush, the USA might not be here in 10 years. We could be insolvent and have communist China come over and repossess all of our government, corporate and private assets.

So tomorrow may never come, but if it does and the bottom of the west reaps massive gains in relative position, at a bigger airline with a more diverse fleet that the other side was flying, with the the side that had those assets taking the negative hit, so be it?!


While we're here, maybe you can answer a few questions that your slower brothers can't/won't. Freebird said that the TA said that no furloughed pilot would be placed below any active pilots. I can't find that and when I asked him to quote it, he didn't. Do you know where that might be? Also, fodase said that USAPA lied with it's chart of EF's seniority, but failed to produce the truth when I asked for it. Do you know? When I pulled up the latest west seniority list on wings it showed him exactly where USAPA said he was. Thanks.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

Key word: likely. Even if the PHX doesn't shutdown, I see a good chance for a reduction in the operation and/or a shift of time to the east. Are there any other major US airlines with their biggest base towards the west coast? The east coast base gives a head start on the day that is hard to catch up with on the west because, except for redeyes, there are not as many opportunities for flying late at night. I'm no expert, but the new rest rules appear to make this worse. I see that shift as being a major problem with the Nic or DOH as currently proposed.

One thing is that USAPA proposes some fences/protection for the west, the Nic has NONE for east.

I think people on both coasts are well aware of what you cite, and worry about it in our own ways from our own perspectives. And we outsmarted ourselves with the seniority being done before the contract, and awaiting dual ratification. The mechanics of what is going on is really simple, when one leaves out all the typical bullet points from both sides.

I think there are some remarkable people on both sides, but they can only do so much, as the peanut gallery on both sides are to busy fluffing feathers. Any more when I think about all this, I always think of that fellow with the handle 'sadstateofaffairs.' That pretty much sums it up.

I guess we're all content to see who gets the two by four across the nose in a few more years.

 

[Pi brat]

I think people on both coasts are well aware of what you cite, and worry about it in our own ways from our own perspectives. And we outsmarted ourselves with the seniority being done before the contract, and awaiting dual ratification. The mechanics of what is going on is really simple, when one leaves out all the typical bullet points from both sides.

I think there are some remarkable people on both sides, but they can only do so much, as the peanut gallery on both sides are to busy fluffing feathers. Any more when I think about all this, I always think of that fellow with the handle 'sadstateofaffairs.' That pretty much sums it up.

Yeah, it's sad.

The worst fears are probably overblown, but PSA is still fresh even after all these years. All the aircraft and routes gone-a lot of senior people still here. It's not their fault of course. Most of them didn't want to come east.

There are somethings that could help mitigate. For example, parity on vacation would produce quite a few new positions on the east. But....I don't think it really matters now, winner take all as long as this outfit stays around.

 

[BoeingBoy]

One thing is that USAPA proposes some fences/protection for the west, the Nic has NONE for east.

No, USAPA proposes some weak protections for PHX. If, as you said, PHX shrinks or is closed those protections disappear. They're only good in PHX.

Jim

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

But....I don't think it really matters now, winner take all as long as this outfit stays around.

I think you're right about it not mattering now. On the bright side, both sides seem to be seeing some benefits to the seperate ops, and hopefully, time and attrition on both sides will go a long way towards alleviating the worst of our fears. In other words, I think I'm tying to say something like my dad always told me, "a hundred years from now, none of this will matter." Of course I'm thinking a much shorther timeline than a hundred years, but that's the gist of it.