US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Hate2fly]

cleardirect,

It's a waste of time. The handful of east cheerleaders on this forum bounce from one delusion or fantasy to the next. Whatever fits the version of the world they want to wake up to in the morning. Just look at the track record of all their bravado. Rico; DOH slam dunk; Nic is dead; Addington never happened; identity theft and people going to jail; LOA93 pay restoration; more transparency; less union infighting; lower dues; "safety" propaganda... the list goes on and on and on. Everyone knows that the only thing they have done successfully is delay the inevitable outcome. They have not take one step closer to ultimately avoiding it. If anything they have only cast the final result in stone, and are now looking to blame someone else again. And all at the cost of untold dollars and quality of life sacrifices to them and their families, just to prop up their already over inflated, self entitled egos.

When UA/CO finally (eventually) finish a JCBA and move on to the SLI which will not include DOH, they will be the only pilot group hanging in the wind of a bankruptcy era contract. (Ironically they bask in the glory of it, like a badge of honor. ) Unfortunately they have dragged the west along for the ride. But I have every confidence that in the end it will be rectified in your favor.

767jetz,

I talked to my college roomate yesterday (UAL A320 Captain). He said all his f/o's are really worried about December. He is flying with guys hired in 1998.

Hate

 

[Black Swan]

How is "reality setting in"? What has changed? We are still waiting for Silver to rule. LOA 93 is MIA. Parrella just screwed the west again. Nothing different there.

The only thing different is the east has a couple more brochures to read.

It is another year of a failed merger delayed by selfish east pilots. usapa still has not delivered anything.

BTW anyone set to go to jail yet? usapa sure backed off the "ID scandal" pretty far. so much for your predictions.

You guys ready to keep this up for the next 3-4-5 years? We are! How about your "senior" guys that are going to become attrition so you junior guys can take the benefit of thier leaving under LOA 93? Could it be the top guys on your list are beginning to ask what is in this for them?

Big difference between the east hand and west hand. East has the 9th. Ruled in stone. The Nic does not have to be in it. Put it in? You have harmed the east. We make the same argument. We don't even have to reference the Nic. How do YOU reference it? Bring up the court case that was erased? What a funny little world you live in. Only your group has the HARM. All you have is a trashy little mailer that makes its' way to the burn pile or recycle. We have a court case. Imagine that. It is always your harm, your hurt. Look at every other labor group that merged here. You are the outlier, and the one that needs to get into line.

 

[Black Swan]

Better tell the head USAPA cheerleader. BS has gone from DOH ruling the day, to attrition/Kasher will ensure a contract with Nic won't pass, to the west being split off, to Parker/Glass giving lots of goodies in a new DOH contract, to shoring up support among those tired of the fighting and worst contract in the industry. Wonder what straw (or fantasy) he'll grab onto next....

Then there's poor Hate - reduced to quoting his own posts to get an 'Amen'.

Jim

And then there is you. The one who re writes the 9th rulings to suit your west fantasy. This is the funniest outcome of all.

 

[Black Swan]

St. Louis? Are you lost?

Why would the west want to modify the Nicolau. It was done by arbitration that both sides agreed to. What was the west going to get out of modifying our position? What was in it for the west?

"NOW, you want to modify it!"
Who wants to modify the Nicolau? Not west pilots, it has been always is east pilots that want west pilots to give you something

"Even these guys get the NIC is dead"
No the Nic is not dead. The Nicolau award is perfectly alive and waiting. Waiting for usapa to finally pull their head out of a dark hole or the next merger.

Yes you do have to use the Nicolau. Read the 9th. The only way it does not have to be the Nicolau is if the west agrees. The west does not agree to anything other than the Nicolau. So Yes it does have to be the Nicolau.We have told you many times.

Nicolau, so incredibly binding the west can't get it out of their feeble mindset. Everyone else has, especially the 9th court of appeals. Your delusion reminds one of those death row lawyer/prisoners. The re-writing is epic. And arrogant to say the least. Fitting, to think you have the power in your hands to re-write law. Totally arrogant.

 

[Freebird]

Big difference between the east hand and west hand. East has the 9th. Ruled in stone. The Nic does not have to be in it. Put it in? You have harmed the east. We make the same argument. We don't even have to reference the Nic. How do YOU reference it? Bring up the court case that was erased? What a funny little world you live in. Only your group has the HARM. All you have is a trashy little mailer that makes its' way to the burn pile or recycle. We have a court case. Imagine that. It is always your harm, your hurt. Look at every other labor group that merged here. You are the outlier, and the one that needs to get into line.

Nice try, but you're wrong. The 9th said the DFR wasnt ripe....yet. You should reread the entire transcipt without your AFO goggles on. USAPA is as ineffective and desperate today as it has always been. You're running out of ammo and kool-aid to supply your minions with.

USAPA = Unquestionably wrong, still.

 

[luvthe9]

Nice try, but you're wrong. The 9th said the DFR wasnt ripe....yet. You should reread the entire transcipt without your AFO goggles on. USAPA is as ineffective and desperate today as it has always been. You're running out of ammo and kool-aid to supply your minions with.

USAPA = Unquestionably wrong, still.

Are you going to start this over and say the 9th said the Nic HAD TO BE IN IT???

 

[Black Swan]

St. Louis? Are you lost?

Why would the west want to modify the Nicolau. It was done by arbitration that both sides agreed to. What was the west going to get out of modifying our position? What was in it for the west?

"NOW, you want to modify it!"
Who wants to modify the Nicolau? Not west pilots, it has been always is east pilots that want west pilots to give you something

"Even these guys get the NIC is dead"
No the Nic is not dead. The Nicolau award is perfectly alive and waiting. Waiting for usapa to finally pull their head out of a dark hole or the next merger.

Yes you do have to use the Nicolau. Read the 9th. The only way it does not have to be the Nicolau is if the west agrees. The west does not agree to anything other than the Nicolau. So Yes it does have to be the Nicolau.We have told you many times.

You say so much, and most is totally off base that we pretty much ignore you. This, is another classic revision of history, and a poor one at that!

 

[BoeingBoy]

You say so much, and most is totally off base that we pretty much ignore you. This, is another classic revision of history, and a poor one at that!

Sounds like you're talking about yourself. Why do you always insist on leaving out the condition the 9th gave for not using the Nic? Talk about rewriting the 9th decision.... ...you're the queen of that...

Oh, Hate. I haven't had to pick up my uniform from the cleaners in over 4 years. Too bad you can't say the same.

Jim

 

[luvthe9]

Oh, Hate. I haven't had to pick up my uniform from the cleaners in over 4 years. Too bad you can't say the same.

Jim

We not buying that for a minute Jim, your are definitly the kind of guy that would want to wear his uniform ( along with that precious ALPA lanyard on) to the grocery store and around town, and especially when you are wasting your retirement on a chat board.

 

[BoeingBoy]

We not buying that for a minute Jim,

Heck, if you agreed to buy it you'd try to weasel out anyway...that's just the way the easties are...

Jim

 

[767jetz]

Are you going to start this over and say the 9th said the Nic HAD TO BE IN IT???

Holy cow! How dense can you guys be? No. The 9th did not say the nic had to be in it. They said it can be whatever you want it to be... AS LONG AS IT DOES NOT HARM THE WEST AS THEY FEAR. You are free to put whatever you want in it. Now why don't you tell me what it is the west fears? Could it be DOH? Your C&R's do not come close to mitigating the harm the west fears. So yes you can do whatever you want, with the pain of an unquestionably ripe DFR if you don't please the west. THAT is what they said.

Just take the nic and DOH as the two polar opposites. Every step away from the nic and closer to doh, risks the unquestionably ripe DFR. The ninth even spelled it out for you. I don't understand how many of you keep quoting the 9th yet ignore what they actually said. Especially the part about not doing the harm the west fears.

There simply is no way around the arbitrated list for you guys. There is no end game that will deliver a win. As I said, delay is your only game. Cleary knows it. So do most of the USAPA supporters. That's why delay is the only thing USAPA has been able to produce. We've been over this hundreds of times. We all know that you claim to be fine with that, LOA93 and all. But its only a matter of time before enough east pilots get tired and decide to move on. Some of your own pilots are already saying that it's getting awfully crowded on that fence.

You have no leverage over the west. They are in a far better position than you are contract wise, to sit this thing out until the last legal battle is won. They only need a relatively small number of east pilots to side with them when the time comes. Nothing will happen until Kasher and Silver are decided. So the delay will continue until then. That will be the trigger point for more action. Nothing but continued stale mate until then.

 

[traderjake]

No desperation, just patience, remember all good things come to those that wait.

Three years of USAPA and nothing to show for it, that's patience.

 

[767jetz]

767jetz,

I talked to my college roomate yesterday (UAL A320 Captain). He said all his f/o's are really worried about December. He is flying with guys hired in 1998.

Hate

I'm worried about the '98 hires as well. But what that has to do with the price of tea in China, I have no idea

Perhaps the reason some of you are so interested in UA is because another airline going with some form of slotting by equipment and status does not bode well for the "Gold Standard" of yesteryear. Maybe it's because a good contract at UA raises the bar again, making USAPA's goal of an industry standard contract even more unattainable.

Bottom line for UA is that there is an end game that will lead to a final result. (Unlike USAPA with no end in sight) That result will be a contract or a strike. The time line of this is up for debate. I do not have a crystal ball, and never claimed that it would happen at any particular time. Only that it will indeed happen and that it will be long before USAPA accomplishes anything for it's pilots. (Beyond the delay which I've already referred to.)

I can read the tea leaves (from China?), just like anyone else, interpolating from facts that we have available.
- The company knows that the pilot contract will cost them more than other groups. Therefore they have no desire to complete a JCBA with the pilots until other groups, particularly the F/A's, are complete. The reason for this is that in the past the pilots went first and opened up a can of worms with everyone else demanding "me too."
- F/A's must first vote on IAM or AFA before their contract can be complete.
- Contract 2000, the last non-concessionary contract we had, dragged on form many months until the company got serious. Then it was hammered out in about 6 weeks.
- The NMB has already told UA and ALPA that they have no intention of wasting tax payer money. IOW, we will be on the fast track once both sides are serious, and unnecessary delay from either side will be dealt with swiftly. They've already told the company on 2 occasions that they are not impressed with their pace and tactics, putting them on warning.
- UA and CO negotiating committee speaks with one voice now that differences have been resolved. So unity against the company is strong, as demonstrated by recent and future picketing events.

This is how contracts get resolved in the airline industry. It's a choreographed dance through many hoops. So my tea leaves say that a tentative agreement will be had by year end or ALPA will be released for self help by then. This makes the furlough clause expiration a moot point.

One last fact. You guys like to talk about attrition. By the end of 2012 the combined attrition at UA/CO will start to the tune of 600 to 900 pilots per year, almost exclusively from the left seat. Earlier if sick leave and early medicals are taken into account. So regardless of a contract, a strike, or any furlough clause, there is very little chance of furloughs barring a significant geopolitical or geo-economic event.

 

[Black Swan]

Three years of USAPA and nothing to show for it, that's patience.

Nothing to show? Lets' see. No Nicolau. (ever- defeated and 9thed) Kasher coming on shortly, with the possibility of a good deal. Lots of guys leaving. Best of all? Seperate Ops.

 

[cactusboy53]

No desperation, just patience, remember all good things come to those that wait. I love watching you guys spining out of control, I think the reality has finally set in.

Yea, REALLY desperate. Let's take a tally:
1. Mad about the Nicolau.........................Let's vote in a new "union"
2. Mad about alleged phone calls & alleged excrement in the mall............Let's file bogus RICO charges TWICE, and lose TWICE!!
3. Attempt to fire West pilots from union for not paying ransom (dues).
4. NO west pilots in ANY chair positions on KEY committees.
5. Attempt to give Mr. Parker a DOH list (DENIED!!).
6. Removal of two PHX based representatives from certain duties for a manufactured BS reason.
7. Screaming bloody murder when allegedly a list is passed that has your names, addresses and possibly other information on that list.
8. Alleging charges against Ferguson, Holmes and others for the alleged information-gate (and I believe getting ready to sue again.....WHAT A SURPRISE!! USAPA sue someone..........Say it isn't so).

Luv;
Your posts of LIES reek of desperation. Why don't you, sum & BS crawl into the little AFO van and have a meeting? Pathetic.