US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Black Swan]

You have to admire a man with a high tolerance for disappointment.

You better pray to God every night. Because if we win Kasher, you are a blip in time for a contract that will never mean anything. And you know it. Your Leonidas mailers are very telling. Your only hope is capitulation before Kasher. If Kasher comes home for us, game over.

 

[crazystnic]

Piedmont- there was a day when even ALPA knew and tried to get the west to avoid going to the wall with the Nic. They knew it wouldn't work. They also were very clear that it was an internal union dispute, and a bargaining position. Negotiable. There was room for compromise. Now, you see where you sit. If you don't capitulate to anything but the Nic, they claim lawsuits till time ends. Just look at their last 5- posts. This group is going to sue you forever, unless you stuff it where the sun doesn t shine, and stuff it good and hard in a legal sense. Somehow, they cannot understand what the 9th ruling meant. Just because they have some crackpot Leonidas group urging them on like a bunch of monkeys doesn t mean anything. Leonidas is giving some of the worst advice ever. All you have to do is look at Addington. They were so inept they blew 2 million for a case that was never ripe. And they will justify it because it was running out of time. So what. It never had merit. Why would you do that? Because their amateur pilot-lawyers should have decided on one or the other, pilot, or lawyer. Sound familiar in our past? And what happened? 2 million gone like the wind, and a bunch of stupid flyers they think will convince you of their version of what you should do. Very soon, in my opinion, they will get a legal ruling that will be both barrels at them. Right after it came out, the west and BB fled the board. That is, until they re wrote history, and re-interpreted the 9th. Then the running gunfight started again.Their first retreat was telling. They knew the truth, then someone convinced them otherwise, again. You are just going to have to be patient, and wait for the clarification . Both sides. I have my theory on it, but that will just bring another battle, so I am sitting on it until then. There is not going to be any contract for a long, long time. Your hope, and there really is only one, is the Kasher decision going your way. Of course they are going to say it was disingenuous of you to and USAPA to go for it. So if you can't figure it out, you are expected to give in to a ruling the 9th said you didn't have to, and surrender years you don't have to to someone who wasn't around for years, and you are expected to roll over and completely disregard the language in LOA 93. And if you don't do it, you have no integrity, and Boeing Boy says you suck. That, is the reality of it. You tell me if it is different. Personally, I am up for the battle and I really don't care what they say. I read the 9th ruling. It is very clear. I also read the LOA 93 pay restoration language, and it is very clear. I stand by both. Leonidas will be the worst decision they ever made to back. Nicolau will be something they should have looked at like a bank truck going down the road with the doors open and money flying out. It ain t ever going to amount to anything.

**********************

well said Black Swann... no emotion ,.. just facts.. As Roland Wilder blogged.... all the risk is on the WEST.
Cheers!

 

[No Land Green]

**********************

well said Black Swann... no emotion ,.. just facts.. As Roland Wilder blogged.... all the risk is on the WEST.
Cheers!

EXACTLY Crazy!!!!!

 

[No Land Green]

Piedmont- there was a day when even ALPA knew and tried to get the west to avoid going to the wall with the Nic. They knew it wouldn't work. They also were very clear that it was an internal union dispute, and a bargaining position. Negotiable. There was room for compromise. Now, you see where you sit.

That"s what the Wye River participant told me, ALPA guy.

 

[No Land Green]

No.

Does that somehow release usapa of their DFR to me?

I don't see a DFR in the future.

 

[luvthe9]

Piedmont- there was a day when even ALPA knew and tried to get the west to avoid going to the wall with the Nic. They knew it wouldn't work. They also were very clear that it was an internal union dispute, and a bargaining position. Negotiable. There was room for compromise. Now, you see where you sit. If you don't capitulate to anything but the Nic, they claim lawsuits till time ends. Just look at their last 5- posts. This group is going to sue you forever, unless you stuff it where the sun doesn t shine, and stuff it good and hard in a legal sense. Somehow, they cannot understand what the 9th ruling meant. Just because they have some crackpot Leonidas group urging them on like a bunch of monkeys doesn t mean anything. Leonidas is giving some of the worst advice ever. All you have to do is look at Addington. They were so inept they blew 2 million for a case that was never ripe. And they will justify it because it was running out of time. So what. It never had merit. Why would you do that? Because their amateur pilot-lawyers should have decided on one or the other, pilot, or lawyer. Sound familiar in our past? And what happened? 2 million gone like the wind, and a bunch of stupid flyers they think will convince you of their version of what you should do. Very soon, in my opinion, they will get a legal ruling that will be both barrels at them. Right after it came out, the west and BB fled the board. That is, until they re wrote history, and re-interpreted the 9th. Then the running gunfight started again.Their first retreat was telling. They knew the truth, then someone convinced them otherwise, again. You are just going to have to be patient, and wait for the clarification . Both sides. I have my theory on it, but that will just bring another battle, so I am sitting on it until then. There is not going to be any contract for a long, long time. Your hope, and there really is only one, is the Kasher decision going your way. Of course they are going to say it was disingenuous of you to and USAPA to go for it. So if you can't figure it out, you are expected to give in to a ruling the 9th said you didn't have to, and surrender years you don't have to to someone who wasn't around for years, and you are expected to roll over and completely disregard the language in LOA 93. And if you don't do it, you have no integrity, and Boeing Boy says you suck. That, is the reality of it. You tell me if it is different. Personally, I am up for the battle and I really don't care what they say. I read the 9th ruling. It is very clear. I also read the LOA 93 pay restoration language, and it is very clear. I stand by both. Leonidas will be the worst decision they ever made to back. Nicolau will be something they should have looked at like a bank truck going down the road with the doors open and money flying out. It ain t ever going to amount to anything.

EXCELLENT post Swan, the only trouble is the west group is to stupid to figure all this out they are wasting so much money for nothing and destroying the careers of their pilot group, they could have been enjoying some of the growth we have here on the east, AOL has done nothing but give these guys false hope. All risk lies with the west, Wye River.

 

[Pi brat]

I guess that's the closest you can get to saying that I was right...but in concession you have to get that slam in. The transition from being able to reasonably discuss issues to NOS the attack dog is almost complete.

Jim

PS - here's a test for you. Take any east permanent bid over the last two years and add up the captain positions and FO positions. See if captain positions outnumber FO positions. That'll show how "smart ass" my answer to that question was. Then you can apologize (but I'm not holding my breath for that one).

I let you be right, I wanted you to make the distinction. We could have avoided all the rest had you just answered the question, "no, I wasn't promised ....".


I don't know what you mean by the test.

 

[Metroyet]

. So what. It never had merit.

I don't recall the jury that convicted yor scab union stating that Addington "didn't have merit"

In your twisted minds, I guess losing on the merits is a good thing. AOL is firmly entrenched in the high ground. Now they just wait for the game of whack-a-scab to begin anew. I personally can't wait....but then again, I make a hell of a lot more than most of you,(except Cleary)

 

[No Land Green]

I make a hell of a lot more than most of you,(except Cleary)

Are you debt free?

 

[fodase]

You clowns crack me up! You don't even know what the 9th ruled on. You were convicted on merits but thrown out on ripeness alone, no merits were even looked at by the 9th

 

[Piedmont1984]

Swan

I agree with your interpretation of the 9th language, to an extent. I agree with Randy Mowrey when he says the Nic is dead, but not necessarily buried. I agree that LCC could care less about seniority, provided they are not liable. Doug Parker can take the Nic award off his shelf and relegate it to the trash bin. But - I am also concerned that the Nic could be resurrected.

If and when Judge Silver rules that the company is not liable, which will take X years, then yes, we can ram an unmodified Section 22 through and secure a TA. At that point DFR II is ripe. The Addington group, or their next incarnation, will file the DFR along with an injunction, which will prevent any improvements from a TA from taking effect. This process will also take X years. The next DFR will use the same fact set from DFR I - as well that 9th language which supports their position. This time Bradford's testimony, which was absent in DFR I, will be used against us.

An LOA93 victory will revert our pay to several years ago. But vacation, sick, reserve, health and medical, LTD and retirement will still be bankruptcy era. So the result is we will be able to endure the rest of our lousy contract for an additional X years.

Add up enough X's and soon you're talking about a big chunk of time. The 60 and over group will retire off a bankruptcy era contract.

Here's a suggestion. Move off DOH and you will: De-fang the next DFR. Tip the balance of sentiment in PHX (the silent majority, not the small phalanx of hoplites who call themselves AOL). Secure the support of the majority of pilots for the efforts of the NAC. Short circuit the entire DJ process. Get all of this done before Christmas.

The next merger will not be DOH, it will be under the auspices of McKaskle-Bond. There has been no legacy merger since Piedmont/USAir which has gone DOH. Republic/Frontier, which was conducted under M/B did not go anywhere near DOH.

We are commiting the classic military blunder. We are waging this war with the strategy and tactics of the last one.

No more posts on this subject from me.

 

[fodase]

Piedmont1984, u get it. Trouble is you are one of the few. Tell me, in your laymans opinion, what are the chances any judge gives lcc immunity from litigation?

 

[fodase]

And btw piedmont, u agree with bs that the 9th ruled the Adington had no merit?

 

[nycbusdriver]

The Addington group, or their next incarnation, will file the DFR along with an injunction, which will prevent any improvements from a TA from taking effect.

DFR II cannot be filed until a ratified contract is in effect. The Ninth actually did rule on that and ripeness needs a ratified contract. Who says, then, that the entire contract would be put on hold by an injunction? If the only point of contention in DFR II is Section 22, why wouldn't the judge simply place an injunction on the section in dispute?

This time Bradford's testimony, which was absent in DFR I, will be used against us.

There was no "Bradford's testimony" in DFR I, so how could it be used against us? Are you somehow aware of what Bradford will testify to in DFR II? Goodness gracious me! The sky is falling down!

Here's a suggestion. Move off DOH and you will: De-fang the next DFR. Tip the balance of sentiment in PHX (the silent majority, not the small phalanx of hoplites who call themselves AOL). Secure the support of the majority of pilots for the efforts of the NAC. Short circuit the entire DJ process. Get all of this done before Christmas.

Move off DOH to what? The Nicolau? Fat chance.
Something in between? That would accomplish ZILCH! It is quite clear that DFR II will commence unless the Nicolau is enshrined in Section 22. It only takes ONE affected pilot to file DFR II. With that in mind, unless the courts order USAPA to use the Nicolau for Section 22, then east pilots could conceivably file DFR II against USAPA if they were to use the Nicolau since the C&BLs require DOH.

We are commiting the classic military blunder. We are waging this war with the strategy and tactics of the last one.

Glad you're not the guy with the bugle. Sounds like your favorite tune is "Retreat."

 

[N924PS]

Glad you're not the guy with the bugle. Sounds like your favorite tune is "Retreat."

By George, now that's funny.

It'll be"Taps" for DOH before it's over.........