US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

And I used to wonder, what sort of primitive mentality allowed the endless, mindless mutual slaughter that went on for so long in the trenches of Europe during WWI.

Eureka!

PI 1984,

I believe it comes from having leaders on both sides that are either away from, and/or immune to, the stress of battle and that believe they are "just that close to victory". They use their "flags" to rally the troops, and keep them fighting.

There have not been enough conclusive victories to lead the other side to believe all is lost. And when there is, the other side will feel no need to give an inch and will collect it's vengeance. Then, after the battle is gone and we are left with the aftermath, will we see the cost.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"

 

[Piedmont1984]

PI 1984,

I believe it comes from having leaders on both sides that are either away from, and/or immune to, the stress of battle and that believe they are "just that close to victory". They use their "flags" to rally the troops, and keep them fighting.

There have not been enough conclusive victories to lead the other side to believe all is lost. And when there is, the other side will feel no need to give an inch and will collect it's vengeance. Then, after the battle is gone and we are left with the aftermath, will we see the cost.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"

Amen

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

Piedmont1984, I guess things are what they are with all our collective egos and the course that has been set, but I can still appreciate where you are coming from. You deserve credit for at least using your thinking cap, I believe you sincerely mean well. There might be hope for us yet someday.

 

[Pi brat]

fodase,

Even though I don't feel that I am a clown, I will answer your question. Yes, I've read the latest AOL brochure. Very early into it I was struck by what was, in my case, a lie. I was NEVER promised a DOH integration. I wasn't promised anything! The only thing I was told by one of my reps that I flew with prior to starting arbitration was that "at my age and seniority, there was no way I could be hurt" and I took that with a gain of salt because I knew there was no way to predict what an arbitrator would rule. I just thought that if he used the tenants of ALPA merger policy, it wouldn't look like it did. I was told that they were using LOS as our position because they felt it was the strongest case for protecting east longevity, not because it was a slam dunk! It's funny that in it's previous brochures AOL quoted Cleary telling us that we never knew what an arbitration would bring, then they say that later, when the company/pilot group was in a worse position, we were promised something?!

After reading this, I took a poll on my last trip to find out if anyone was promised a DOH integration. I couldn't find anyone, and almost to a person they said they knew that the east position being accepted unaltered was a long shot, because of how the US/Shuttle merger went.

To east posters: Were any of you promised anything from your reps?

If AOL is lying/twisting this "fact", what else are they lying/twisting about? With USAPA's chart at least they showed the temporary loss of seniority for EF. As I remember, AOL's graph only the loss for DOH, not the gain that Nic gave the west going forward. That's what is ignored over there.

Now, I answered yours, answer mine: Where is the real EF seniority chart?

 

[Pi brat]

Amen

I'm sure you will catch grief from both sides for even suggesting an alternate solution, but thanks for trying. I don't think the soil is ready now, but you never know. Events may come along this year that may change the soil and let those seeds sprout!

 

[luvthe9]

Error

Your always in error!!!

 

[CactusPilot1]

Piedmont1984, I guess things are what they are with all our collective egos and the course that has been set, but I can still appreciate where you are coming from. You deserve credit for at least using your thinking cap, I believe you sincerely mean well. There might be hope for us yet someday.

Agreed....CP1

 

[PullUp]

Seniority Matters -- Unless You Are Senior!

Update for May 13, 2011: Seniority Matters -- Unless You Are Senior! If you are senior and the whole "Seniority Matters" campaign seems like just another element of "The Big Lie", you might be interested to read this update and the content available via the embedded links. If something about USAPA smells funny and you are wondering why the"Association" doesn't seem that interested in the issues of the top two thirds of the East Seniority list, it might have something to do with the fact that the overwhelming majority of USAPA 'volunteers' are very junior. Are they looking out for you? Will they ever?

Did you know that all three members of the three man "Negotiating Team"
have three interesting things in common: 1) They have never negotiated anything, 2) They were all previously furloughed, and 3) they are very junior on whatever list you choose.

Love those pretty lanyards - "Nothing Says Good Union Pilot like an elegant piece of yellow ribbon".

See Story

More blather about how ALPA screwed BOTH pilot groups by not insisting on:
1. Pay parity
2. A new unified contract

For all u ALPOIDS out there, these groups ulitimately can blame this entire mess on the former bargaining agent.
It generated a huge load of crap that is still being shoveled out.
I applaud all USAPA volunteers that contribute to the betterment of the pilots' collective profession and despise those who only criticize and never offer help.
The old addage applies here: Lead, follow, or get out of the way.

 

[luvn737s]

More blather about how ALPA screwed BOTH pilot groups by not insisting on:
1. Pay parity
2. A new unified contract

For all u ALPOIDS out there, these groups ulitimately can blame this entire mess on the former bargaining agent.

Please explain all of your post.

How would pay parity prompt both sides to come to an agreement on seniority integration sooner?

What specific blame can you assign ALPA national?

Did they tell you NC what to open with? Did they tell the NC what methodology to stick with, even after they were not-so-subtly telegraphed that DOH would not fly? Did they tell you that USAPA operatives should use ALPA facilities to plan and implement their premeditated split?

If you want to blame ALPA National, blame them for not providing the strong leadership that would have forced the full completion of the integration process. They should have placed both MEC's into trusteeship and signed a joint contract before USAPA had a chance to rear it's ugly head.

No, all the blame for this mess lies with a few emotional F/O's who ginned up an idea that played on the emotional response of the east pilot group to the Nicolau award. Now apathy and the lack of a viable alternative (at least for now) keeps Cleary and his minions in power. The east pilots are being duped into a false hobson's choice between keeping the most corrupt group of pilots in the history of airline labor in power or being labeled as "traitors" by some unknown group for wanting more than a union that knows how to spend money losing court cases, but can't figure out how to provide basic union services to it's members.

The reformers need to wake up and put their efforts behind replacing USAPA with a union of real pilot leaders who produce results, not rhetoric.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Man, who else does that sound like? B)

You (but you're not the only one). Read the last part again. You do love to take a swipe at those you're replying to that don't agree with you. I try to limit that to replying in kind. Take a swipe at me, I hit back.

Jim

PS - it was the East MEC that all but promised DOH by restricting the MC to that outcome only. When it didn't happen, the founders of USAPA gathered support by saying that the best chance of getting DOH was through what became USAPA. They pushed the emotional buttons provided by the East desire for DOH to get elected. But to the best of my memory they never promised DOH, they just made it look easily achieveable given the East majority.

 

[Pi brat]

You (but you're not the only one). Read the last part again. You do love to take a swipe at those you're replying to that don't agree with you. I try to limit that to replying in kind. Take a swipe at me, I hit back.

Jim

PS - it was the East MEC that all but promised DOH by restricting the MC to that outcome only. When it didn't happen, the founders of USAPA gathered support by saying that the best chance of getting DOH was through what became USAPA. They pushed the emotional buttons provided by the East desire for DOH to get elected. But to the best of my memory they never promised DOH, they just made it look very achieveable given the East majority.

OMG, you are funny! Take a look in the mirror. You try to limit replying in kind? Like the relentless replies to me that I was a child molester, or that I had damaged and aircraft? I never put anything like that on you. You lost your credibility a long time ago.

All but promised? BULL! It was a negotiating stance. If your wife sends you to by a car and you say your opening will be $20,000, are you promising her that she will get it for that? The majority of guys I fly with say they didn't come think it would come in exactly as our merger committee proposed, they just didn't think it would be, in their opinion, as far out of whack as the Nic. But, after all the blabbering and massaging, you tell the truth in the end, they didn't promise-to the best of your memory.

 

[CactusPilot1]

More blather about how ALPA screwed BOTH pilot groups by not insisting on:
1. Pay parity
2. A new unified contract

For all u ALPOIDS out there, these groups ulitimately can blame this entire mess on the former bargaining agent.
It generated a huge load of crap that is still being shoveled out.
I applaud all USAPA volunteers that contribute to the betterment of the pilots' collective profession and despise those who only criticize and never offer help.
The old addage applies here: Lead, follow, or get out of the way.

Some just need to get out of the way because they lack certain skills for the position they hold:

Posted on another forum:

We Just Got Screwed By Parrella

This is the 1st arbitration USAPA has EVER settled. We got nothing for it but Parker's original offer of a 12 month repayment. Parella did this as retribution to the West pilots. USAPA is the most vile and disgusting group of thugs ever to lead a group of airline pilots. USAPA needs to refund the 1.95% dues taken out over this money. They got an interest free loan according to Parrella's logic. Further, this was supposed to be the first West contractual grievance by USAPA. TA-10 was a TA dispute. ACARS should have come first but she wouldn't push it because the if we won the East would be returned to their old method of aircraft movement and lose money.

This is why USAPA cannot be reformed. We have two contracts that compete with each other and the ACARS grievance shows that East interests will always come before our contract on the West.

Grievance 10-04-001 (West Distance Learning)
The Grievance Committee pursued this case through the grievance steps, and given the Company's denial of the grievance, it scheduled the case for hearing on May 17, 2011, before Arbitrator LeRocco.

Unfortunately, in the evaluation by the Grievance Committee and its legal advisors, an arbitrator was highly unlikely to have sustained this grievance. The dispute related to a Letter of Understanding that was negotiated between ALPA and US Airways, Inc. on April 17, 2008. In that LOU, ALPA and US Airways agreed that the pilot would be responsible for completing up to twelve approved credit hours of recurrent home study within a calendar year and that the pilot would "receive pay, no credit at one half the Pilot's applicable hourly rate for every one (1) approved credit hour." Put simply, the Parties agreed that pilots would receive half pay for the first twelve hours they dedicated annually to distance learning and $40.00 per hour for all training thereafter.

In March 2010, the Company discovered that it had been paying a full hourly rate to pilots for the first twelve hours of distance learning, at which point it corrected the situation prospectively and sought to recoup the overpayments from the affected pilots. The America West Contract at Section 4 (P) (5) has specific language that controls in a situation where the Company has made an overpayment:

If a Pilot is overpaid, the Pilot shall select one (1) of the following options:

a) A new check will be written immediately;

b] Reimburse the company the total amount; or

c) Reimburse the Company through payroll deduction spread equally over four (4) bid periods. If the Pilot does not select an option, this method will be the default.

The Union was concerned that pilots would automatically lose large monthly deductions over four bid periods if it did not intervene and that concern was what prompted it to file BPR Grievance 10-04-001. However, if an arbitrator were to deny the grievance, s/he would have no choice but to apply the language as written for a remedy and would not be permitted to consider issues of fairness or alter the negotiated contractual language. The Union therefore recognized that the clear contractual language contained within the LOU as well as the CBA meant that it would be very unlikely to prevail at arbitration. The arbitrator was likely to find for the Company and immediately permit the Company to recoup the overpayments within four bid periods.

The Union was mindful of the hardship that immediate and large deductions may impose on pilots, and it therefore entered into settlement discussions with the Company. This week the Parties have reached a settlement wherein the affected pilots will have a further twelve (12) months from the date of the settlement to reimburse the Company for the overpayment. This further twelve months is in addition to the fourteen months, which has already ensued since the Company discovered the error. Thus while the situation was undoubtedly created by the Company's error, the affected pilots have been allowed approximately two years of benefit from the additional monies without incurring any financial penalty or interest. In light of the weakness of the arbitration case, the Union has come to the conclusion that this settlement best preserves the interests of the affected pilots and the Union has therefore withdrawn BPR Grievance 10-04-001 in favor of the settlement.

Under the terms of the Settlement, the Company will provide each pilot with an accounting of the overpayment. Each pilot will then have a thirty (30) day period in which they can review the Company's data as well as challenge any errors. Payroll deduction will begin with the first pay period after July 1, 2011.

The Settlement Agreement will be posted on the Grievance Committees portion of the USAPA website next week after the document is fully executed.

Approximately 27 pilots have filed individual grievances that are related to the pay rate of distance learning training. The settlement of the BPR Grievance does not impact any individual statutory right that those pilots may have to pursue their grievances through to arbitration. USAPA will contact the individual Grievants and provide them with the information that they need in order to pursue their grievance through to the System Board of Adjustment.

Tracy Parrella
Chairman, USAPA Grievance Committee

 

[fodase]

Well I know you are - but what am I?

Someone close the windows.

KV

 

[BoeingBoy]

All but promised? BULL! It was a negotiating stance.

The threats to recall the MC members if they didn't fight for DOH? The petitions that the MC was not to accept anything but DOH? A negotiating position???

I left out USAPA's trump card - a Constitution that allowed no other merger method than DOH.

Call the dog a cat alll you like but you're only fooling yourself.

Jim

PS - you left out the small detail that I did those things after The Easties circled the wagons defending NOS. Replying in kind.

 

[Pi brat]

The threats to recall the MC members if they didn't fight for DOH? The petitions that the MC was not accept anything but DOH? A negotiating position???

I left out USAPA's trump card - a Constitution that allowed no other merger method than DOH.

Call the dog a cat alll you like but you're only fooling yourself.

Jim

PS - you left out the small detail that I did those things after The Easties circled the wagons defending NOS. Replying in kind.

It's still not a promise. You cannot promise for someone else.

When did I ever defend nos?