US Pilots Labor Discussion

[luvn737s]

No matter what list is used, there is no TA that even merits a vote. Sorry, Kirby Proposal is a POS, Nic number or not. Another ALPA POS.

You need to come to the realization that USAPA can't ever negotiate anything better than Kirby. Under USAPA, you'll only be given what management's benevolence will provide, and even then you won't be allowed to vote on it.

If you really want to shift the balance of power back towards the pilots, you need to replace USAPA with an entirely different union that makes unity of 100% of the pilot group it's goal because that is it's engine.

If you want to keep the status quo with Cleary and Mowery making the pilots a laughingstock, then you need to abandon all aspirations of an improved contract and working conditions and be satisfied with having seen the highest wage rates you will ever see as a pilot.

Are you prepared to give him your career?

 

[Phoenix]

You need to come to the realization that USAPA can't ever negotiate anything better than Kirby. Under USAPA, you'll only be given what management's benevolence will provide, and even then you won't be allowed to vote on it.

If you really want to shift the balance of power back towards the pilots, you need to replace USAPA with an entirely different union that makes unity of 100% of the pilot group it's goal because that is it's engine.

If you want to keep the status quo with Cleary and Mowery making the pilots a laughingstock, then you need to abandon all aspirations of an improved contract and working conditions and be satisfied with having seen the highest wage rates you will ever see as a pilot.

Are you prepared to give him your career?

That's enlightening.

After all of the democratic processes to date, we should put Metroyet in charge so that we can finally trade our seniority in exchange for LUV + 25% wages. Who woulda thought?!

Where is Metroyet's donate button?

 

[Beancounter]

Yo Nic, you guys CHOSE not to particapate in the growth, you were all led down the wrong road by Ferguson's promise of jumping ahead of all of us, it's kind of funny alot of westies realize now they were screwed over by AOL What's even better your furloughed guys that come over here have nothing good to say about AOL or AWA. These guys will be right seat in a wideboby long before the rest of you. You see where greed gets you!!!

I can't speak for others, but I for one don't want your wide body seat. I think flying a 737 out of Phoenix is a great gig. The A330 looks like a great airplane, but I've jumpseated enough to know that jet lag can really do me in. Would someone just tell me what USAPA wants for seniority. It's obvious DOH or putting furloughs ahead of active pilots will never make it past a court or impartial arbitrator. So what is the proposal? What is DOH with restrictions?

 

[traderjake]

Now now, I'm sure you are smart enough to know Doug does not want a contract, Tell me why he would want to increase the company costs by approx 160 million per year.

You are truly clueless.

It's the union's job to make a new contract the lesser of two undesirable choices for Doug.

 

[traderjake]

What is DOH with restrictions?

It's furloughing a thousand West pilots before the first East pilot.

 

[Phoenix]

I can't speak for others, but I for one don't want your wide body seat. I think flying a 737 out of Phoenix is a great gig. The A330 looks like a great airplane, but I've jumpseated enough to know that jet lag can really do me in. Would someone just tell me what USAPA wants for seniority. It's obvious DOH or putting furloughs ahead of active pilots will never make it past a court or impartial arbitrator. So what is the proposal? What is DOH with restrictions?

Imagine putting Nic4Us (A furloughed West pilot) ahead of active East pilots sitting right seat on the A330. Maybe that will make Nic4Us content.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Imagine putting Nic4Us (A furloughed West pilot) ahead of active East pilots sitting right seat on the A330.

Thanks for stating your double standard so clearly. So now that West pilots are furloughed and no East pilots are, it's wrong to put furloughed ahead of active. Yet it's fine to do that at the time of the merger. So your "fair" solution is for East to win regardless...

Jim

 

[sumadarson]

Thanks for stating your double standard so clearly. So now that West pilots are furloughed and no East pilots are, it's wrong to put furloughed ahead of active. Yet it's fine to do that at the time of the merger. So your "fair" solution is for East to win regardless...

Jim

Please explain what happened to The Empire airline pilots when they merged with your former company you flew for. The Empire pilots were stapled to the bottom. You are now advising other pilots how it should be done.

You will avoid this question and not get to the point, this will confirm your extreme hypocritical opinions.

You are a hypocrite, plain and simple.

 

[Phoenix]

I'm amazed by the widespread misconception as to how seniority lists are built. It's longevity...always has been, always will be. .....

The PID was over five years ago and the crystal ball that was telling Nic and friends about the future is now replaced by a rear view mirror with 20/20 hindsight. Separate Ops has been the perfect control measure and equalizer. All the fear over massive furloughs was nothing more than fear, despite the delay of age-forced retirements. The fear of one side stealing jobs from the other never happened. The fear that retirees would leave our beloved message board for more productive pursuits never happened. Those who see the glass as half empty never joined those who see it half full.


The only significant event in the last five years is that Aqugreen73s lost his religion of longevity.

 

[Beancounter]

Imagine putting Nic4Us (A furloughed West pilot) ahead of active East pilots sitting right seat on the A330. Maybe that will make Nic4Us content.

I'm sorry, you lost me. No, a furloughed pilot shouldn't be put ahead of an active pilot. It would never make it past an arbitrator, a DFR lawsuit, or for that matter even the company. I don't think Nic4Us was furloughed at the time of the merger, since we were hiring something like 20 a month. I wouldn't think that an East pilot sitting right seat in the A330 would have been furloughed prior to the merger, would he?

 

[Phoenix]

I'm sorry, you lost me. No, a furloughed pilot shouldn't be put ahead of an active pilot. It would never make it past an arbitrator, a DFR lawsuit, or for that matter even the company. I don't think Nic4Us was furloughed at the time of the merger, since we were hiring something like 20 a month. I wouldn't think that an East pilot sitting right seat in the A330 would have been furloughed prior to the merger, would he?

The PID was over 5 years ago.

There are wide body pilots now in the right seat that were furloughed at the PID, but could not be sitting there if the NIC had been implemented. With separate ops, no one can complain that they are being denied anything that they brought to the merger (well actually pilots will complain no matter what ).

The East is now moving up pretty fast and there is no sign of stagnation anytime soon. DOH is what they brought to the merger. How many more years do we expect before an integrated seniority list is implemented? In other words, the longer it takes to get an integrated list ratified, the more lopsided the Nic becomes (when comparing current reality with circumstances at the PID of oh so many moons ago, and becoming more moons with each passing night.) A list that wasn't based on DOH or longevity becomes freakish as time marches on slowly exposing the reality of a list that tried oh so hard to exclude the factor that all pilots are equally subject to, time.

Nic's failure is shown more and more with each passing day. How obvious does Nic's inequity have to become before a union can no longer claim ignorance as an excuse for forcing such a lopsided seniority system on the pilot group?

The West better get busy with their DFR II. If they wait too late many of the East pilots on furlough at the PID will be sitting as captains and wide body FOs, which of course would be a good argument that longevity (that Aqugreen favored) is an integration method that is "within a wide range of reasonableness". In fact, at some point in time (if it hasn't already occurred) the constant change under separate ops will reveal that the Nic is far outside of that wide range of reasonableness.

 

[BoeingBoy]

More of the same BS

And you are a liar. Maybe you should have stuck with the lav truck...

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

Nic's failure is shown more and more with each passing day.

Actually Nic is shown to be right - the East pilots fare far better with the merger than without, just as he said. So to balance the equities, he gave the West pilots something - relative position by equip/seat.

Jim

 

[Beancounter]

The PID was over 5 years ago.

There are wide body pilots now in the right seat that were furloughed at the PID, but could not be sitting there if the NIC had been implemented. With separate ops, no one can complain that they are being denied anything that they brought to the merger (well actually pilots will complain no matter what ).

The East is now moving up pretty fast and there is no sign of stagnation anytime soon. DOH is what they brought to the merger. How many more years do we expect before an integrated seniority list is implemented? In other words, the longer it takes to get an integrated list ratified, the more lopsided the Nic becomes (when comparing current reality with circumstances at the PID of oh so many moons ago, and becoming more moons with each passing night.) A list that wasn't based on DOH or longevity becomes freakish as time marches on slowly exposing the reality of a list that tried oh so hard to exclude the factor that all pilots are equally subject to, time.

Nic's failure is shown more and more with each passing day. How obvious does Nic's inequity have to become before a union can no longer claim ignorance as an excuse for forcing such a lopsided seniority system on the pilot group?

The West better get busy with their DFR II. If they wait too late many of the East pilots on furlough at the PID will be sitting as captains and wide body FOs, which of course would be a good argument that longevity (that Aqugreen favored) is an integration method that is "within a wide range of reasonableness". In fact, at some point in time (if it hasn't already occurred) the constant change under separate ops will reveal that the Nic is far outside of that wide range of reasonableness.

Thanks for clarifying. What I think you are failing to see is that you just described what is wrong with a DOH integration for AWA and US. By keeping the groups separate, yes you have shone what a DOH list will due. It has west pilots that were active at the time of the merger furloughed and east pilots that were furloughed now rapidly moving up.

If there was no merger there may have been furloughs on the west, but if the industry was at that point then US probably would have been unable to exit bankruptcy. Both carriers needed the other. It was AWA management and credit that was used to attract the investors to pull US from bankruptcy. US brought something to the table that AWA needed, something we couldn't afford to get any other way than through the merger. US hubs and routes as you well know if managed properly are far more valuable than AWAs.

Was the Nic fair. No, it gave a windfall to junior pilots like myself and at the same time was unfair to senior AWA pilots. I don't think two wrongs make a right, but I don't think it's any more unfair than DOH which places 80% of AWA's pilots at the bottom of the list.

Did you really expect an outside arbitrator to grant DOH? I'm not asking in a snide way, I'm seriously curious. Like I've been shown by our management team time and time again it's all about managing expectations

In my opinion both airlines needed each other and the same goes for the pilot groups. The only thing we have in fighting for our pay and work conditions is our unity. Parkers no dummy he knows this.

Have to sign off my wife wants a back rub since it's Mother's day. Have a good night.

 

[nic4us]

I'm sorry, you lost me. No, a furloughed pilot shouldn't be put ahead of an active pilot. It would never make it past an arbitrator, a DFR lawsuit, or for that matter even the company. I don't think Nic4Us was furloughed at the time of the merger, since we were hiring something like 20 a month. I wouldn't think that an East pilot sitting right seat in the A330 would have been furloughed prior to the merger, would he?

You are correct beancounter. No West pilot was furloughed at the time of the merger. (Nic4us was a lineholding A320 capt long prior to the merger, still is by the way).

The scabs are simply throwing out nonsensical bs to deflect attention from their intent of job theft.