US Pilots Labor Discussion

[73320]

The other thing you guys ignore is that you lane was going to come to a halt. We've been shown that repeatedly since 2005, but most west refuse to accept it, just constantly repeating "But we were makin g captain in 7 years, were were making captain in 7 years...............blah,blah blah", ignoring the realities of your situation and the airline business in the United States.

Was the west line coming to a halt because it merged into a stalled and shrinking lane or it was going to come to a halt of its own unrealistic historic movement?

If one would agree with you that a stand alone AWA list might have stagnated or shrunk, what might a stand alone AAA list have looked like? Would there have been a line? It seems quite clear that you are lightning quick to discount what AWA's lines future would be and conveniently paint a much rosier picture for the AAA line despite the financial fact set at the time and the long history of respective line movements. Once again all of this was vetted in the arb and for some reason the three neutrals charged with merging the lanes apparently did not see the same fact set in AAA's history and circumstances that you all seem to see quite clearly. Read the transcripts!

If 9 out of 10 east only want to move up the east list why are they not proposing some attrition upgrade protection for east hulls? The fact set on what the east claims they want to protect vs their punitive actions toward the west tell a different story. If the east only wanted their attrition than they would be proclaiming status quo with separate Ops and fill union positions with west pilots and have the NAC stand down and quit wasting vast sums of money on punishing the west. It is quite clear to any outside observer that the east believes that there is only one line and it is their line. The west are interlopers that never deserved anything they ever had and it was the luckiest day in a scum bag westies life when he was unrighteously placed in the much better and brighter line that was the AAA lines destiny. He should have been put in the back of our line as his line is suspect at best. It is even more galling that those scum bag west pilots have better compensation that they did not deserve. I am sure on the day the merger was announced those undeserving westies were jumping for joy at the chance to hitch their wagon to the glorious AAA, while the AAA pilots were deeply disappointed as a murky cloud came into their bright future.I think we should try and obliterate them from our ranks is the main view espoused on here and through USAPA's actions. Come on in the waters just fine!

 

[Pi brat]

What is attrition worth if the company goes away?

Nothing. Did US go away?

 

[Pi brat]

PI , the problem is that eric's relative position in 2005 at awa was much higher than that chart shows, you need to use date of merge data no todays data where 400 west pilots are gone off the bottom.

I gave you a chance to prove USAPA wrong. There are 400 less pilots, fine I will take your word for and wasn't really questioning the number, just pointing out how high the number was for the 22 A/C you mentioned. Were any of those pilots senior to EF?

The past doesn't matter right? Furloughed don't count right? Isn't that the west mantra?

 

[PullUp]

Both sides need to step back from this latest publication from USAPA and recognize it for what it is – propaganda. It doesn’t matter if the charts, data and conclusions are 100% accurate or 0% accurate. It doesn’t change a thing related to resolving the seniority issue and attaining a JCBA. Whether accurate or a total fabrication, the publication won’t change the course of the ongoing dispute and yet future court proceedings; it won’t change the West pilot’s perception of DOH or any non-NIC scheme; and it won’t compel Management to drop the DJ and accept USAPA’s proposal.

The only purpose it serves is to increase the “fog of war” effect so as to keep the rank-and-file east pilots too busy thinking about the “injustice” of the NIC while ignoring the fact that USAPA has failed to deliver anything of value to the pilots. The end of LOA93 is nowhere in sight, the LOA93 arbitration is in the “we need a miracle” status for now, the possibility of a DOH seniority list is mostly an unachievable fantasy, and the east pilots have gained NOTHING more by certifying USAPA than they could have accomplished by simply voting no on any JCBA proposed by ALPA.

$eham has a lot to show for the three years of USAPA playing shell games with pilot’s lives and livelihoods, but those paying his bills are worse off than if they had kept the status quo and voted “No”. Once this manufactured noise settles down USAPA will unquestionably generate another diversion to reignite support for their losing cause, particularly when a defeat (LOA93) is announced. Cleary and $eham have managed to find a lucrative situation where total incompetence and deception for personal gain is rewarded, perhaps even celebrated, rather than being removed from power. Is it genius or just dumb luck to lead a group which prefers failure to success?

The latest publication from USAPA is a reply to the two multipage missives generated by ALPA-AWA (AOL). It's a refutation, not a proclaimation. As such, it is not designed to influence anything, just educate.
The east contingent does not need anyone to remind them of the injustice of the nic list. Neither do they have any fantasies about what the kirby proposal really includes and why it is a POS.
They also realize the only entity holding back progress now is management.
LOA 93? 11 months in, 7 to go. 18 month time limit, expect something by the end of the year.
DOH is here, now. Every day the nic list is not implemented is another day of DOH.
Voting 'no' with ALPA in charge would have led to a nic cramdown. The PHL LEC was taken over by national. With a little pressure, the CLT and DCA LEC's would have caved.
And dues dollars NOT funding Herndon puts a smile on easties faces.
Cheers.

 

[nic4us]

You know nic, you you used to have some well thought out posts, but no you just seem to resort to the name calling. I think the frustration is getting to you.

You said the other day that Nic didn't staple 1500 east pilots. I'm back now and I looked at the Nic and I show the bottom 1751 pilots to be east pilots. If that is not a staple what is it?

It is no longer worth my valuable time to compose well thought out post, so here is a rant.

usapa has sent me a mailer full of lies, that does not address me at all, but is nothing more than an east pilot pep rally brochure, offering incorrect data to appeal to the east lemings to stay the course, rationalizations of why it is okay to steal EF's seniority, and why you deserve it. Quite frustrating indeed, but not getting to me anymore than all the other extemporaneous BS we endure on a daily basis.

You want to call placing 1751 furloughed pilots, the vast majority of which had not returned although offered recall by the time of the arbitration, below west pilots who were employed on and prior to the PID stapling? Fine, but what you said was a 1000 east pilots were stapled, I think it was more like 400 who accepted recall, many of which knowing damn well what their position was going to be on the Nic.

But to truely answere your question "if that is not stapling what is?" Stapling is placing 85% of the West list below the most junior east pilot Monda. Not only is it stapling, it is a complete job theft, not any more righteous than a simple line crossing scab taking a strikers job.

Two more things, the usapa mailers graph clearly shows usapa's intent of stealling EF's seniority, their rationalization of why it is okay. If we ever make it to a DFRII, I am sure it will be offered into evidence.

Mowery is a JO. "The nic Award would immediately and permanently impede the career progression of East pilots and nearly all the east first officers." Compared to what? All he is saying is the east pilots are better off if they can steal the West seniority and advance themselves at the West expense. F,n scumbag scab. How is that for frustrated name calling?

 

[Freebird]

The east contingent does not need anyone to remind them of the injustice of the nic list. Neither do they have any fantasies about what the kirby proposal really includes and why it is a POS.

Does the East contingent need to be reminded that they too agreed to Binding Arbitration?

Because of USAPA's impotence, they wont get anything better than Kirby so long as ithey continue to fractionalize the West and the East.

USAPA = Al Qaeda?

 

[Freebird]

The past doesn't matter right? Furloughed don't count right? Isn't that the west mantra?

No, the West Mantra is "Integrity Matters". Both the East MEC and West MEC signed the Transition Agreement that placed ALL furloughed pilots below active pilots. Did you miss that part?

USAPA = Rudderless, depressed, downtrodden, wanna join us?

 

[nic4us]

The latest publication from USAPA is a reply to the two multipage missives generated by ALPA-AWA (AOL). It's a refutation, not a proclaimation. As such, it is not designed to influence anything, just educate.
The east contingent does not need anyone to remind them of the injustice of the nic list. Neither do they have any fantasies about what the kirby proposal really includes and why it is a POS.
They also realize the only entity holding back progress now is management.
LOA 93? 11 months in, 7 to go. 18 month time limit, expect something by the end of the year.
DOH is here, now. Every day the nic list is not implemented is another day of DOH.
Voting 'no' with ALPA in charge would have led to a nic cramdown. The PHL LEC was taken over by national. With a little pressure, the CLT and DCA LEC's would have caved.
And dues dollars NOT funding Herndon puts a smile on easties faces.
Cheers.

ALPA-AWA(AOL). You are more clueless than I suspected. AOL's goal is not to get us back to ALPA. AOL's goal is to own usapa. A goal easily reached for young pilots such as AOL's founder Ferguson.

All else being equal, Ferguson will likely be usapa president in 7-10 years.

LOA93, 11 months in, 7 to go, then 3 more years when the arbitrator rules in the company's favor.

 

[Pi brat]

F,n scumbag scab. How is that for frustrated name calling?

Aww......bless your heart.

 

[Pi brat]

Both the East MEC and West MEC signed the Transition Agreement that placed ALL furloughed pilots below active pilots. Did you miss that part?

Why yes I did miss that. Please show me.

Freebird=I have to use beer commercials for inspiration.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

The latest publication from USAPA is a reply to the two multipage missives generated by ALPA-AWA (AOL). It's a refutation, not a proclaimation. As such, it is not designed to influence anything, just educate.
The east contingent does not need anyone to remind them of the injustice of the nic list. Neither do they have any fantasies about what the kirby proposal really includes and why it is a POS.
They also realize the only entity holding back progress now is management.
LOA 93? 11 months in, 7 to go. 18 month time limit, expect something by the end of the year.
DOH is here, now. Every day the nic list is not implemented is another day of DOH.
Voting 'no' with ALPA in charge would have led to a nic cramdown. The PHL LEC was taken over by national. With a little pressure, the CLT and DCA LEC's would have caved.
And dues dollars NOT funding Herndon puts a smile on easties faces.
Cheers.

You forgot to mention , no one wants the hub in PHX, I guess the fragmentation scenerio is starting to set in! MM!

 

[Pi brat]

Was the west line coming to a halt because it merged into a stalled and shrinking lane or it was going to come to a halt of its own unrealistic historic movement?

If one would agree with you that a stand alone AWA list might have stagnated or shrunk, what might a stand alone AAA list have looked like? Would there have been a line? It seems quite clear that you are lightning quick to discount what AWA's lines future would be and conveniently paint a much rosier picture for the AAA line despite the financial fact set at the time and the long history of respective line movements. Once again all of this was vetted in the arb and for some reason the three neutrals charged with merging the lanes apparently did not see the same fact set in AAA's history and circumstances that you all seem to see quite clearly. Read the transcripts!

If 9 out of 10 east only want to move up the east list why are they not proposing some attrition upgrade protection for east hulls? The fact set on what the east claims they want to protect vs their punitive actions toward the west tell a different story. If the east only wanted their attrition than they would be proclaiming status quo with separate Ops and fill union positions with west pilots and have the NAC stand down and quit wasting vast sums of money on punishing the west. It is quite clear to any outside observer that the east believes that there is only one line and it is their line. The west are interlopers that never deserved anything they ever had and it was the luckiest day in a scum bag westies life when he was unrighteously placed in the much better and brighter line that was the AAA lines destiny. He should have been put in the back of our line as his line is suspect at best. It is even more galling that those scum bag west pilots have better compensation that they did not deserve. I am sure on the day the merger was announced those undeserving westies were jumping for joy at the chance to hitch their wagon to the glorious AAA, while the AAA pilots were deeply disappointed as a murky cloud came into their bright future.I think we should try and obliterate them from our ranks is the main view espoused on here and through USAPA's actions. Come on in the waters just fine!

According to the guys that run this thing, yes AWA's lane was coming to an end.

A better analogy might be that both of our lanes were coming to an end and we were merged into a new single lane detour.

Contrary to you claim, I have NEVER painted a rosey picture of US's pre-merger health. What I have pointed out is that it is now evident that AWA was not as healthy as you guys thought. Another analogy would be that both had cancer, with US in the latter stages and AWA just being diagnosed after finishing a marathon and feeling pretty good, but the doctor had the tests back and was getting ready to give you the bad news. We both go the same treatment for the cancer-A MERGER. Both airlines were on the same path, both of those paths ended with the merger. If US had gone out of business before the merger was completed I might agree with you, but it didn't. It is clear to almost everyone that pays attention that AWA's days of 7 year captain checkouts were about to be over. For some reason Nic thought that because your company was in a better financial condition at the period of time you deserved more. I disagree, but I know you don't care.

I've read the transcripts. Have you? How about the part where Brucia disagrees with Nic about the long term furloughed pilots? Read that one?

We think Nic got it mostly wrong, you think he got it mostly right. It doesn't matter, neither of us is going to be the FINAL judge.

You can have a pity party about what the east pilots thought about you if you want. I never felt that way and most guys I know didn't.

 

[Pi brat]

Your analogy makes sense, we merged. We combined. Whats yours isnt just yours anymore. Whats mine isnt just mine anymore. We both agreed to enter binding arbitration, which side failed to honor the results?

USAPA = Stuck in Reverse.

Oh, and easy one-the east. What's your point?

 

[Freebird]

Oh, and easy one-the east. What's your point?

The point is that both airlines merged and career expectations were altered for East and West. When this merger happened, both MEC's agreed that furloughed pilots were to be junior to all active pilots. End of discussion from those two parties.

USAPA is now trying (unlawfully and failing) to preserve the careers of the East at the expense of the West.


USAPA says "SWA pays each of its 2,950 Captains about $90K per year more than US Airways. That's about $265 million more per year in Captain wages. They also pay their 2,950 First Officers about $40K per year more than US Airways. That's about $118 million more per year in First Officer wages, for a rough total of $383 million dollars more that SWA pays in pilot payroll than US Airways."

"Once you've read the attachment, ask yourself -- are you willing to continue working for the lowest pay and worst working conditions in the industry? Have you had enough yet?"The funny thing is that they want recognition and respect from USAirways management, yet they attack and manufacture crisis after crisis like a bunch of attention starved school girls. Cant have it both ways. USAPA has been going down the wrong road from day 1. And you seem to be supporting them.

USAPA = Losing

 

[Freebird]

Why yes I did miss that. Please show me.

Freebird=I have to use beer commercials for inspiration.

When you dont like the message, attack the messenger. Very predictable. You're slipping.

USAPA = Had enough yet?