US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

dupe

 

[Pi brat]

How about this. Why don't you post Varini's graph? You may understand what I am talking about.

Oh, so despite running your mouth this is all you have to counter with. Predictable.

I don't have Varni's numbers, but if I get them I will, all three graphs.

 

[cleardirect]

Oh, so despite running your mouth this is all you have to counter with. Predictable.

I don't have Varni's numbers, but if I get them I will, all three graphs.

That should be interesting. As long as you are looking how about this.

Here are simple questions.

How much seniority did Monda have at the time of the merger?
How much seniority did Colello have at the time of the merger?
How much seniority did O'Dell have at the time of the merger?
How much seniority did Varini have at the time of the merger?

 

[cleardirect]

What is attrition worth if the company goes away?

 

[cactusboy53]

What is attrition worth if the company goes away?

That's the beauty of it Clear. While accepting the Nicolau and NOT spending 10's of Millions of dollars would have secured this airline as a viable contender in the airline market, they can rest peacefully on the stool at Walmart, Home Depot or Lowes knowing they will never have to accept the Nicolau award.... :blink:

Meanwhile, SSM & P will be seeking as many billable hours as possible from the SWA mechanics (arguing their position, of course), and Cleary & Mowrey will be fetching coffee for the Teamster top dogs.

 

[767jetz]

SWAPA press release:

SWAPA Persistence for Alternative Screening Leads to New Program

SWAPA has been working closely with Southwest Airlines, the Coalition of Airline Pilots (CAPA), the Airline Pilots Association (ALPA), the Air Transport Association (ATA), the Transportation Security Administration (TSA) and other agencies to make this alternative screening process more efficient and effective.

Jim

Jim,

Why would you post something like this? We all know that USAPA and Cleary are responsible for Crew Pass.

 

[Freebird]

I've been a Captain for over 25 years... I don't need to "recapture" anything nor do you have anything that I could possibly want. I responded to the statement you made about our bringing stress upon ourselves. Your answer to that is another declaration that the West are being victimized.

I guess this is your way of saying you have no idea what you are talking about.

Driver <_<

USAPA's goal is to recapture the careers of the East pilots at the expense of the West pilots. At the time of the merger the West had ZERO pilots on furlough and were in the hiring mode. AAA had over 1,000 pilots on furlough and were in the DOWNSIZING mode. (facts). Both pilot groups agreed to binding arbitration (fact) and that all furloughed pilots would be junior to the most junior active pilot (fact). The East Pilots through USAPA are holding the implememtation of the NIC Award hostage because they are unwilling to abide by their agreement (fact). The East pilots want to allow furloughed pilots to return to the line as Captains and delay the career progression of the West pilots (fact). The WEST pilots ARE being victimized by the EAST only because of the number of pilots and are headed for DFR2 if they impose DOH on the WEST in any way (fact).

USAPA's Strike Prepardness Committee released this May 3, 2011 : We are enduring an unprecedented level of stress right now. For many of us, bankruptcy, foreclosure, divorce and even suicide are now a part of the vocabulary of being a pilot at US Airways. Life sure has changed. The blatant and vicious attacks on our profession will likely continue until we, the pilots, stand up to corporate tyranny.

We all know that we are the finest, most experienced and skilled pilots in the industry. Why on Earth should we be willing to accept anything less than industry-standard wages and working conditions?[/b] Are Southwest pilots better than us? How about AirTran, and the countless other carriers that make significantly more money and are treated with much greater respect and working conditions?

There you have it Driver, USAPA whining about the "stresses" upon them, you and I. So YES, USAPA is bringing the stress of "For many of us, bankruptcy, foreclosure, divorce and even suicide are now a part of the vocabulary of being a pilot at US Airways"They leave out that they are choosing to lay in their own misery by wasting millions of dollars to get away from binding arbitration. (Because it makes them feel powerful). Meanwhile you (25+ year Captain) are making industry low wages and work under an indusrty-low contract.


USAPA = The Stressmaker.

 

[Freebird]

Nic merged our lines, like a lane on the interstate closing, and let more of the guys that were in the faster moving line get ahead of the ones that had been waiting longer. Does that analogy make sense?

The other thing you guys ignore is that you lane was going to come to a halt. We've been shown that repeatedly since 2005, but most west refuse to accept it, just constantly repeating "But we were makin g captain in 7 years, were were making captain in 7 years...............blah,blah blah", ignoring the realities of your situation and the airline business in the United States.

Your analogy makes sense, we merged. We combined. Whats yours isnt just yours anymore. Whats mine isnt just mine anymore. We both agreed to enter binding arbitration, which side failed to honor the results?

USAPA = Stuck in Reverse.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Both sides need to step back from this latest publication from USAPA and recognize it for what it is – propaganda. It doesn’t matter if the charts, data and conclusions are 100% accurate or 0% accurate. It doesn’t change a thing related to resolving the seniority issue and attaining a JCBA. Whether accurate or a total fabrication, the publication won’t change the course of the ongoing dispute and yet future court proceedings; it won’t change the West pilot’s perception of DOH or any non-NIC scheme; and it won’t compel Management to drop the DJ and accept USAPA’s proposal.

The only purpose it serves is to increase the “fog of war” effect so as to keep the rank-and-file east pilots too busy thinking about the “injustice” of the NIC while ignoring the fact that USAPA has failed to deliver anything of value to the pilots. The end of LOA93 is nowhere in sight, the LOA93 arbitration is in the “we need a miracle” status for now, the possibility of a DOH seniority list is mostly an unachievable fantasy, and the east pilots have gained NOTHING more by certifying USAPA than they could have accomplished by simply voting no on any JCBA proposed by ALPA.

$eham has a lot to show for the three years of USAPA playing shell games with pilot’s lives and livelihoods, but those paying his bills are worse off than if they had kept the status quo and voted “No”. Once this manufactured noise settles down USAPA will unquestionably generate another diversion to reignite support for their losing cause, particularly when a defeat (LOA93) is announced. Cleary and $eham have managed to find a lucrative situation where total incompetence and deception for personal gain is rewarded, perhaps even celebrated, rather than being removed from power. Is it genius or just dumb luck to lead a group which prefers failure to success?

 

[73320]

This is not true for the United guys hired in 99 who are on the street.

Ok so Untied may be the outlier and did not suffer as long or as many and as deep of cuts as AAA, but the points still stand. Does United nullify my points and the east situation was normal and good and the wests' was obviously an unrighteous anomaly and post merger the west got was was always coming to it while the east righteously recaptured what was always its destiny? Am I getting this right?

 

[crazystnic]

That should be interesting. As long as you are looking how about this.

Here are simple questions.

How much seniority did Monda have at the time of the merger?
How much seniority did Colello have at the time of the merger?
How much seniority did O'Dell have at the time of the merger?
How much seniority did Varini have at the time of the merger?

It's not that simple and that is your problem... If it was that simple this would be easy...

remember even your beloved ALPA says "protect career expectations" and that is not what was done as the NIC delays an older EAST pilot's upgrade while advancing a younger WEST pilot's upgrade.

 

[crazystnic]

What is attrition worth if the company goes away?

there is no guarantee that was the outcome...
you banter it about but it is an unknown.

 

[73320]

Other airlines don't have anything to do with us, but since you brought it up, let's look at another airline of the past, TWA. We have some guys from there, right? Well, did you know that years back TWA was the airline where guys languished on the seniority list? But, they slugged along and attrition kicked in and they started hiring and guys moved up. I believe that before the AA merger they were moving up smartly despite still not being in the greatest health. You guys won't believe it, but 9 out of 10 east guys don't want to take from the west, they just want to finally move up on the east.

TWA had to hire Commuter First Officers the last several years as they could not keep new hire Capt.s in line as they met the qualifications for "other airlines".These "other airlines" had something to do with them as they could not keep these Commuter Capt.s in TWA's line as these pilots left at a prodigious rate for better lines. They did not stay in that line nearly as long as AAA pilots stayed in line. TWA's was forced to hire FO's as they were not qualified to move to the better lines as a result of zero turbine PIC time.

 

[fodase]

Ok fodase, show us. You come up with a graph that has the true data that shows Eric's progression with the Nic, DOH, and AWA standalone. I will give you the chance to prove it and I will listen to you.

I can't tell you that I am 100% certain that the USAPA graph is correct because I didn't make it and I don't have the data. But..........I have seen the similar graph for me and I can assure you that it was correct.

Here could be a reason that Eric is better under the USAPA chart. You notice that at the beginning he is worse? He is worse because even though he is part of a bigger group, more people go ahead of him than behind, so he loses relative position. Now, as we go forward in time(and his age-funny how the go along, huh?), the east attrition kicks in, mostly the ones senior to him, and his relative position moves up. He is a part of a bigger group, and more senior east people leave ahead of him than would have on an AWA only list, so........his relative position is better with BOTH DOH and Nic as time goes by than he would be AWA stand alone, just the Nic is waaaay better right now.

Does that help?

PI , the problem is that eric's relative position in 2005 at awa was much higher than that chart shows, you need to use date of merge data no todays data where 400 west pilots are gone off the bottom.

 

[fodase]

Isn't that amazing? I had no idea. And, get this, 22 aircraft and 400 pilots works out to 18.18 pilots per aircraft. The nic award says that pre merger west staffing was 13.03 pilots per aircraft(BTW, if you remove the 2 EMB aircraft Nic showed east staffing at 12.7 per aircraft despite having IROs and an older pillot group that probably had slightly more vacation and sick leave usage on average). Wow! They must have over furloughed. The west must really be lean now. I guess it's all those block hours the east "stole".

Be careful walking around fodase's numbers, you know where he get's them, right?

PI, in 2005 the certified awa list showed over 1800 pilots on property, today there is 1400. Now go get a calculator and tell me how many pilots are gone from our list