US Pilots Labor Discussion

[A320 Driver]

The key word is "were". As in, "at one time" but things changed for you and you are trying to recapture your youth on the backs of the West. For what? To be a Captain for 1-2 years? Is your ego so dysfunctional that you are willing to work under LOA93 just to say youre a Captain? Pathetic.

USAPA = Living in the past.

I've been a Captain for over 25 years... I don't need to "recapture" anything nor do you have anything that I could possibly want. I responded to the statement you made about our bringing stress upon ourselves. Your answer to that is another declaration that the West are being victimized.

I guess this is your way of saying you have no idea what you are talking about.

Driver <_<

 

[73320]

I hope you enjoyed your cool drink.

I'm thinking they were playing to their intended audience, the older east pilots. Without them having to do the math it shows them how the Nic advances Eric so much more rapidly than either DOH, or AWA standalone, and makes him better off(?) than they are at their current age and as they get older. You think?

Again, whatever the reason, Eric's age vs. a year at the bottom doesn't change the curves.

You don't need to tell me about blindly believing Clear, Mowery, Ferguson, Mckee, Parker, Kirby, Obama, Holmes or pretty much anyone else.

You do realize that if you compare the east to any airline in the US right now and for the past 10 years or more, that pilots at these airlines were all "advancing much more rapidly than east pilots and that they were all generally much better off than the east pilots were at their current age and as they got older"? That fact set seems lost in the scrum. The east wants to hand that cross born to the west where they will be rewarded in the future if they can carry it to the elusive "mount on high".

I was also somewhat amused at your post #13651 about the places in lines. It seems to me that over the course of a long period of time that the east line kept shrinking and the last ones' in line often disappeared, while someone much further ahead of them became the last in line- this went off and on many times. The west over this period of time had a line that was getting longer with new faces continually being the last in line while those in the front went to pasture at a moderate rate. This was the exact fact set presented to the Arb, and you may want to read the whole transcript for further understanding of what happened.

You stated "The east furloughs had a place in line that no one could step in front of". As previously stated they were out of the line. The west had a line as well that you all conveniently seem to ignore as if there is only one line - yours. It is difficult for one to imagine the rationale that justifies moving a group of pilots who were taken out of a shrinking line for extended periods of time and placing them ahead of pilots who were in a better line that moved faster and was giving out much better benefits to those who were in it. I am certain that the post merger realities for the west will be used to justify the unrighteousness of the wests' line pre-merger, while highlighting the certainty that the furloughs are only getting their rightful place - a place that arguably would not have existed without the merger. This is the classic case of the dangers in being in the water near a drowning swimmer.

Carry on..........

 

[Code Name V]

Again an answer with no defensible facts or figures, this is why you are cowards with no integrity. you agreed to binding arbitration where you demanded doh, you didn't get it so went back on your word like the sleaze balls you are and hatched a plan (usapa) to take it by force. To explain your despicable behavior, so the guilt doesn't eat you up, you convince yourself that: "but it's not fair", "we lose a bazilion captain years", "you will inherit the airline", "you keep what you brought" etc.. This explains why the east has to use the force of the majority to get their way, and this explains why seehams whole defense is how unfair the Nic. is period. You clowns got lucky that our management gets their morals from the same place you clowns do and has allowed the west to lose 22 aircraft and 400 pilots, so that now you pieces of crap want to use charts and figures based on the backward movement directly caused by your direct actions a full 6 years after we were declared single carrier. Despicable clowns.

And because of your immature and abhorrent behavior and attitude, you and your group will continue to slide into oblivion or Republic; whichever comes first....however, you can continue with your mantra until your demise; your choice. We really don't care about you.....at all....it has however been fun to watch you squirm along the way....goodby.

V

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

No one wants a hub in PHX, Kaplan has it right, as for furloughs what side has recalled all furloughs EAST and WEST,? MM!

 

[88 B.T.D.]

You do realize that if you compare the east to any airline in the US right now and for the past 10 years or more, that pilots at these airlines were all "advancing much more rapidly than east pilots and that they were all generally much better off than the east pilots were at their current age and as they got older"?

This is not true for the United guys hired in 99 who are on the street.

 

[nic4us]

And because of your immature and abhorrent behavior and attitude, you and your group will continue to slide into oblivion or Republic; whichever comes first....however, you can continue with your mantra until your demise; your choice. We really don't care about you.....at all....it has however been fun to watch you squirm along the way....goodby.

V

Do you support the scab association and it's immature and abhorrent behavior. If so, you are nothing more than a scab yourself, and have no room to speak.

 

[nevergiveup]

Erics age is irrelevant. Upgrade at AWA was 7 years. What was it back East? USAPA is trying to recapture the career of an East pilot at the Expense of the West. Your MEC agreed to binding arbitration and the agreement stated that ALL furloughed puilots would return Junior to/under ALL Active pilots, period. It's not for discussion or negotiation, it's solved. Sorry you cannot understand that? It's costing you a lot Pi to support the thugs of USAPA.


USAPA = What's your excuse?

Career expectations...the biggest myth in aviation! east and west

 

[Pi brat]

Without the raw data that graph is just colored lines with no meaning.

The place to start would be the lists.

In 2007 EF was 1619 of 1853 87.3%
DOH makes EF to be 6347 of 6676 95.0%
But we cannot leave out the 1700 FURLOUGHED east pilots. The east brought 3176 (Monda) active pilots and the west brought 1853 (O’Dell) for a total of 5029. That means that by DOH EF’s true position would be.
Active DOH 6347 of 5029 126%. Transferring the east furloughs to EF. Just attrition EF would be about 47 years old before he would be above the furlough line. Now whether he is furloughed or just rides the bottom as east furloughs are returned ahead of EF. So his career stagnates at the very least until 2012 using DOH. In reality EF is 5556 of 5029 or 110% not the false statement of 80% like the usapa propaganda tries to sell. If usapa were to steal the Nicolau and west jobs it would 2017 before EF even gets back to where he would have been stand alone.

Even the east MEC’s own numbers guy said the Nicolau delays the east 2 years max. DOH delays the west about 10 years before we see the first benefit from this merger. Beginning to understand now?

I've understood you for a long time and have shown that over and over again.

A graph has no meaning. Really? Why do so many people spend the time to convert raw data into graphs. For most people it presents the data and in an easy to see form, and with this one it makes it easy to compare three sets of numbers at a glance. I'm not going to take the time to explain how to use a graph anymore. Geeze.......

You are all over the place with this. You throw out numbers and dates, but don't put them together, so you are hard to follow. But, you say that it would take EF until he is 47 to get above the furlough line. What do you mean? He will turn 40 in Nov right? There are no east furloughs, so unless he is furloughed west, he is above the furlough line now. Do you mean the old line from 2005 where guys were furloughed? If that's what you mean, so what? What your seniority bought in '05 really doesn't matter now, isn't that what we have always heard? At 47 the graph shows him at around 57% DOH, or 37% Nic, so I'm not sure what you are talking about. You say he is at 110%(you fail to say when but I'm guessing now), but I don't see how that can be. There are no east furloughs, less than 200 west, and all the third list guys are junior to him.

1700 furloughed pilots? I asked nic4us about this the other day when he said there weren't 1500 east pilots stapled. I guess you disagree. Remember, many, and I'm thinking it was most, of those pilots never returned.

If you guys think USAPA's graph is lying, have AOL put one out in the exact same format showing the real numbers.

This is a fact: going forward, looking at a static list, the Nic shifts relative positions from east to west. There is no way around that and I cannot understand why you guys think it serves your purpose to deny it.

 

[Pi brat]

You do realize that if you compare the east to any airline in the US right now and for the past 10 years or more, that pilots at these airlines were all "advancing much more rapidly than east pilots and that they were all generally much better off than the east pilots were at their current age and as they got older"? That fact set seems lost in the scrum. The east wants to hand that cross born to the west where they will be rewarded in the future if they can carry it to the elusive "mount on high".

I was also somewhat amused at your post #13651 about the places in lines. It seems to me that over the course of a long period of time that the east line kept shrinking and the last ones' in line often disappeared, while someone much further ahead of them became the last in line- this went off and on many times. The west over this period of time had a line that was getting longer with new faces continually being the last in line while those in the front went to pasture at a moderate rate. This was the exact fact set presented to the Arb, and you may want to read the whole transcript for further understanding of what happened.

You stated "The east furloughs had a place in line that no one could step in front of". As previously stated they were out of the line. The west had a line as well that you all conveniently seem to ignore as if there is only one line - yours. It is difficult for one to imagine the rationale that justifies moving a group of pilots who were taken out of a shrinking line for extended periods of time and placing them ahead of pilots who were in a better line that moved faster and was giving out much better benefits to those who were in it. I am certain that the post merger realities for the west will be used to justify the unrighteousness of the wests' line pre-merger, while highlighting the certainty that the furloughs are only getting their rightful place - a place that arguably would not have existed without the merger. This is the classic case of the dangers in being in the water near a drowning swimmer.

Carry on..........

Other airlines don't have anything to do with us, but since you brought it up, let's look at another airline of the past, TWA. We have some guys from there, right? Well, did you know that years back TWA was the airline where guys languished on the seniority list? But, they slugged along and attrition kicked in and they started hiring and guys moved up. I believe that before the AA merger they were moving up smartly despite still not being in the greatest health. You guys won't believe it, but 9 out of 10 east guys don't want to take from the west, they just want to finally move up on the east.

Your not exactly right about the east line shrinking. It stayed mostly the same, with guys in line leaving for retirement, sick, or resignation, etc. But, most people stayed in line, it's just that the number in the line needed to fly airplanes changed, so some in the line were working, some were waiting. Nic merged our lines, like a lane on the interstate closing, and let more of the guys that were in the faster moving line get ahead of the ones that had been waiting longer. Does that analogy make sense?

The other thing you guys ignore is that you lane was going to come to a halt. We've been shown that repeatedly since 2005, but most west refuse to accept it, just constantly repeating "But we were makin g captain in 7 years, were were making captain in 7 years...............blah,blah blah", ignoring the realities of your situation and the airline business in the United States.

 

[No Land Green]

You clowns got lucky that our management gets their morals from the same place you clowns do and has allowed the west to lose 22 aircraft and 400 pilots, so that now you pieces of crap want to use charts and figures based on the backward movement directly caused by your direct actions a full 6 years after we were declared single carrier. Despicable clowns.

You have 400 pilots on furlough? WOW!!!!

 

[Pi brat]

Do you support the scab association and it's immature and abhorrent behavior. If so, you are nothing more than a scab yourself, and have no room to speak.

You know nic, you you used to have some well thought out posts, but no you just seem to resort to the name calling. I think the frustration is getting to you.

You said the other day that Nic didn't staple 1500 east pilots. I'm back now and I looked at the Nic and I show the bottom 1751 pilots to be east pilots. If that is not a staple what is it?

 

[nycbusdriver]

Small correction. Technically we would be speaking of AWA's present (May 2005), not its past.

So when the courts uphold the Nicolau as the only seniority list.....then we sing Kum By Ya and march together to a joint contract?

Probably not the Kum Ba Ya part, but yes on the rest. Of course, there is the necessity of a vote on the joint contract with the Nicolau obscenity attached by court decision. No telling how that will turn out. Given that the westies seem to think it will pass easily, then you have no beef once the court battles have concluded.

Personally, I will vote NO, but I cannot be certain that my decision will be the prevailing one.

 

[Pi brat]

You have 400 pilots on furlough? WOW!!!!

Isn't that amazing? I had no idea. And, get this, 22 aircraft and 400 pilots works out to 18.18 pilots per aircraft. The nic award says that pre merger west staffing was 13.03 pilots per aircraft(BTW, if you remove the 2 EMB aircraft Nic showed east staffing at 12.7 per aircraft despite having IROs and an older pillot group that probably had slightly more vacation and sick leave usage on average). Wow! They must have over furloughed. The west must really be lean now. I guess it's all those block hours the east "stole".

Be careful walking around fodase's numbers, you know where he get's them, right?

 

[Pi brat]

Personally, I will vote NO, but I cannot be certain that my decision will be the prevailing one.

Despite you saying this repeatedly, and the fact the senior pilots like you have not broken down the door at USAPA headquarters demanding them to give in on the Nic and get a contract at any cost, I'm sure the west guys on here won't believe you.

Oh well.

 

[cleardirect]

I've understood you for a long time and have shown that over and over again.

A graph has no meaning. Really? Why do so many people spend the time to convert raw data into graphs. For most people it presents the data and in an easy to see form, and with this one it makes it easy to compare three sets of numbers at a glance. I'm not going to take the time to explain how to use a graph anymore. Geeze.......

You are all over the place with this. You throw out numbers and dates, but don't put them together, so you are hard to follow. But, you say that it would take EF until he is 47 to get above the furlough line. What do you mean? He will turn 40 in Nov right? There are no east furloughs, so unless he is furloughed west, he is above the furlough line now. Do you mean the old line from 2005 where guys were furloughed? If that's what you mean, so what? What your seniority bought in '05 really doesn't matter now, isn't that what we have always heard? At 47 the graph shows him at around 57% DOH, or 37% Nic, so I'm not sure what you are talking about. You say he is at 110%(you fail to say when but I'm guessing now), but I don't see how that can be. There are no east furloughs, less than 200 west, and all the third list guys are junior to him.

1700 furloughed pilots? I asked nic4us about this the other day when he said there weren't 1500 east pilots stapled. I guess you disagree. Remember, many, and I'm thinking it was most, of those pilots never returned.

If you guys think USAPA's graph is lying, have AOL put one out in the exact same format showing the real numbers.

This is a fact: going forward, looking at a static list, the Nic shifts relative positions from east to west. There is no way around that and I cannot understand why you guys think it serves your purpose to deny it.

How about this. Why don't you post Varini's graph? You may understand what I am talking about.

What was Varini's STAND ALONE seniority percentage?
Stand alone in what year would varini have been recalled?