US Pilots Labor Discussion

[A320 Driver]

Okay, now I have seen the usapa mailer. Ironically it came today in the mail with a "Safety Binder Updates", which I thought was quite odd because I have no safety binder, and, if I did, after 34 years of flying, the last people I would take "safety" advice from is a bunch of reneging malcontents who think they are in a position of authority, and formerly worked for an airline with the worst safety record of any major in the last 30 years. Quick question, how far down the list from "steal the West's seniority" is safety in the usapa C&BLs these days?

Back to the mailer. Very first page, a chart, three lines plotting the arch enemy EF. Top line in red, EF's normal progression of seniority based on what a neutral third party arbitrator found to be "fair". Second line in green, usapa's proposal, that obviously steals EF's seniority, by over 20% and gradually giving it back to him over a (get this 30 year period) yep they steal it and it takes him 30 years to get back to where he should have been. Third line in yellow, AWA stand alone. This third line is an obvious east mentality arrogant depiction, because we all know that if AWA stood alone, USairways would have failed, and EF's yellow line would be above both the usapa geen line and the Nic red line.

Next topic, Mowery is a complete dipshit, any questions? I won't bother quoting that ignorant scab. The mailer does a fine job of doing that. Which make perfect sense, in a we at usapa are too stupid to realize the position we are in kind of way.

Finally, why did usapa bother mailing this thing to me. It is obviously directed at the east. Stating things like AOL want you to give up your seniority and such. Which BTW is another lie. AOL does not want the east to give up their seniority, AOL wants the east to have their rightful place on the seniority list, and not leapfrog the West in their scab attempt at job theft through stealing our seniority. Further, AOL does not want me to give up my seniority, AOL is protecting me from the usapa scabs who are actively trying to steal my seniority.

Let me spell it out all plain and simple for the east and usapa straight up. The Nic is not going away. To paraphrase the scab mailer, "not only will the Nic prevail, it already has."

If you didn't want the mailer, why didn't you do what I did with the two from AOL? I took them straight from the mailbox to the shredder. I'll do the same thing with the one from USAPA. Propaganda won't fix this mess...nothing will. It's gone on too long.

The courts can decree whatever they like, but they can't make you vote YES.

Imagine that...

Driver B)

 

[nevergiveup]

Please RTFQ, how do you figure that without the merger Eric would be at 45 percentile? What numbers are you using?


Again, was the usair pilot with 16 years employed by and flying mainline at usair date of merger? if not, then he/she did not bring a job to the merger.

No one ever brings a job to a merger. You're nothing more than the hired help. A merging Kiwi pilot could have been an exception.

 

[CactusPilot1]

If you didn't want the mailer, why didn't you do what I did with the two from AOL? I took them straight from the mailbox to the shredder. I'll do the same thing with the one from USAPA. Propaganda won't fix this mess...nothing will. It's gone on too long.

The courts can decree whatever they like, but they can't make you vote YES.

Imagine that...

Driver B)

I read both, these are the same arguments I saw at the Addington trial, DFR1. I did not shred or RTS the maiiler. There was nothing new. Seham failed to convince a jury, even with the Sully and Skiles side show that an "older" and "more experienced" pilot group was getting cheated by binding arbitration, a proceess agreed to by both parties.

This will be settled in court which will hopefully block all the escape routes for Usapians.

 

[cactusboy53]

If you didn't want the mailer, why didn't you do what I did with the two from AOL? I took them straight from the mailbox to the shredder. I'll do the same thing with the one from USAPA. Propaganda won't fix this mess...nothing will. It's gone on too long.

The courts can decree whatever they like, but they can't make you vote YES.

Imagine that...

Driver B)

Driver;
You classify the Leonidas brochures as "propaganda". Is this because you took the time to read the content, researched the data and found it to be in error? Or as you state, you simply made a B line to your shredder and make it into confetti?

I took the time to read the USAPA mailer. It is based on age discrimination, and the assumption that everything that comes out of Mowrey's mouth (now) is to be taken as fact. Everything in USAPA's mailer can be factually refuted. The same can not be said for the Leonidas brochure series.

It is an utter shame that USAPA & its supporters have forced us to do our rendition of the Hatfields & McCoys for a few more years. The winners (beside Charlie Sheen)? Doug Parker, his management team, the BOD of LCC, and all of the involved legal teams.

Regarding a vote, the NAC is doing contract progress meetings & solidarity marches with over 25 sections of the contract OPEN (ALPA only had 6-8 sections remaining when the AAA JNC members were instructed to WALK AWAY). There won't be a vote any time soon. Imagine that...

 

[A320 Driver]

Driver;
You classify the Leonidas brochures as "propaganda". Is this because you took the time to read the content, researched the data and found it to be in error? Or as you state, you simply made a B line to your shredder and make it into confetti?

Uhhh... "C"

Nothing new, same old BS from both sides. I've found the mailers from Piggly Wiggly more informative.


Driver.

 

[BoeingBoy]

The courts can decree whatever they like, but they can't make you vote YES.

But there are a couple of entities that can hand you a complete contract - no "yes" votes required. Wouldn't that be a fine pickle - all the money to $eham only to end up with no choice.

Jim

 

[Freebird]

If you didn't want the mailer, why didn't you do what I did with the two from AOL? I took them straight from the mailbox to the shredder. I'll do the same thing with the one from USAPA. Propaganda won't fix this mess...nothing will. It's gone on too long.

The courts can decree whatever they like, but they can't make you vote YES.

Imagine that...

Driver B)

Do you really think Doug Parker gives a rats patootie about USAPA? USAPA is powerless.

Sure the message they spew attracts the fly's and thats what its designed to do. Pointing the finger at everyone else and striking out at anyone who disagrees makes cowards feel stronger. But its a fallacy. A very costly fallacy. The propaganda man at USAPA is playing the same tune he played under ALPA and the East is buying it. Why? Because the elixir makes them "feel" better, but its proven to be ineffective. The East is settling for industry low wages and desperately trying to justify harming the West pilots and so far they have only a small audience of AFO's and others not smart enough to see through their crap.

Many USAPA supporters and kool-aid drinkers say that they are "fine with LOA93". If so, why hasnt USAPA offered the company to stay under LOA93 in exchange for DOH? Seems easy enough. Better yet, why doesnt USAPA want to let you vote for a contract and prove the East resolve? The courts would love it. What is USAPA afraid of?

Indecision is a decision. It is a decision to paralyze and confuse those around you. It is a decision to paralyze because when people don’t know what to do some will do nothing. This inaction causes your followers to lose faith in your leadership. It is also decision to confuse because in the absence of clear direction some people will move in different directions. The ensuing chaos leads to a crisis of leadership. Make a decision. Or a decision will be made for you. (Authored by Alex Baez)

USAPA = Indecision leads to failure.

 

[A320 Driver]

But there are a couple of entities that can hand you a complete contract - no "yes" votes required. Wouldn't that be a fine pickle - all the money to $eham only to end up with no choice.

Jim

I can't think of one outside of bankruptcy court. East already works under a bankruptcy contract. What's the difference?

The money to Seham...might as well have burned it. We should have stuck with an ALPA DFR. They seem popular these days. All water over the dam now.


Driver <_<

 

[A320 Driver]

Do you really think Doug Parker gives a rats patootie about USAPA?

Better yet, why doesnt USAPA want to let you vote for a contract and prove the East resolve? The courts would love it.

I don't think DP gives a rat's patootie about anything but his bank account.

What contract??? The "Kirby"? If you think this company and it's investors want a contract with the pilots OR the F/As, you're dreamin.

Driver <_<

 

[icehead]

Feel free. It is about time you do a little work and prove your points. Let's see the graphs.

You can cherry pick any segment of the list and project different outcomes to prove a point, its simple. If the argument is narrow enough it can be structured reasonable, as are some of the cases in the mailing. But there are some fundamental facts that are provable from any perspective no matter how bright the sunshine - they are immutable. A few caveats however for the never ending expanded version of reasonableness - no mergers, USAirways remains viable and the Earth continues to rotate at life supporting angular velocity. When a pilot reaches X ( X = Federally Mandated age of pilot retirement) that pilot creates a Y ( Y = one Vacancy). Those vacancies would be realized by both groups A and B at a ratio of 3/4. To summarize, the younger group on balance gets 3 out of 4 vacancies. This ratio could even favor group A over B more by virtue of the fact that on any day a younger person has a better chance of making it to the next day than the older person. So you see, you don't need a graph for everything. Like the pictures of OBL, released or not, for some He lives on....

 

[Pi brat]

I took the time to read the USAPA mailer. It is based on age discrimination,

Age discrimination? That's a new one, how do you figure that one?

 

[Pi brat]

I read both, these are the same arguments I saw at the Addington trial, DFR1.

There was nothing new.


This will be settled in court which.

Those are statements I can agree with.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Age discrimination? That's a new one

Not to some on the East - they've been claiming that the older East pilots should be higher on the combined list while younger West pilots should be lower. Just another rational for DOH...

Jim

 

[Pi brat]

Not to some on the East - they've been claiming that the older East pilots should be higher on the combined list while younger West pilots should be lower. Just another rational for DOH...

Jim

Why are you answering me? You told me you were done with me when I showed you that you were wrong and you couldn't take it. Stick to it.

 

[Pi brat]

Please RTFQ, how do you figure that without the merger Eric would be at 45 percentile? What numbers are you using?


Again, was the usair pilot with 16 years employed by and flying mainline at usair date of merger? if not, then he/she did not bring a job to the merger.

If you weren't so hung up on the graph having Eric's age instead of a date you would see that it shows the shift of relative position moving from east to west going forward. They should have shown an '89 east hire and you would have seen his curve going in the opposite direction. Looks like EF hits 45% at about 47 with Nic, 50 with DOH, and 53 AWA stand alone. I didn't make the graph so I don't know about you point of using a different date and if the AWA stand alone includes furloughed pilots or not. Unlike AOL's chart, the USAPA graph shows the effect of Nic, DOH,and individual stand alone.

You can say it doesn't matter. You can say it's fair. You can say that it is a product of an agreed upon process and it is what we should live with. Those are all your opinions and you have the right to say them, but you cannot say it does not happen with the Nic and some at AOL tried to say that it doesn't happen, or to downplay the significance.

No pilot at either airline brought anything to the merger except a place in line. The east furloughees had a place in line that no one could step in front of. Nic reshuffled the line. 9 out of 10 east think he got it wrong. 9 out of 10 west think he got it right. Since the east was bigger and decided to "appeal", we will have to wait for the higher authorities, or other events, to show us the way.

See ya, have a great rest of the week and weekend.